SM58 replacement ? + mixing desk ?

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Hello,

I currently own a SM58 which is very nice and I've never had a problem with it. But here's the thing, I find that the sound is "muffled" and that the microphone gain is low, I won't be able to explain it!
I specify that I use a scarlett 2i2 only.

I'm trying to orient myself towards the beta 58A.
Is this a good idea?
I am streaming and I wish a better audio quality.


I was wondering if it wasn't coming from my sound card and if it wouldn't be better to move to a mixer? Would the sound really change or not?

If so, is the Behringer Xenyx QX1204USB a good alternative to replace my scarlett 2i2?

I don't know much about it, that's why I'm asking for help!

Thank you very much and I hope I was clear (I use a translator)
 
Twiky said:
Hello,

I currently own a SM58 which is very nice and I've never had a problem with it. But here's the thing, I find that the sound is "muffled" and that the microphone gain is low, I won't be able to explain it!
I specify that I use a scarlett 2i2 only.

I'm trying to orient myself towards the beta 58A.
Is this a good idea?
I am streaming and I wish a better audio quality.


I was wondering if it wasn't coming from my sound card and if it wouldn't be better to move to a mixer? Would the sound really change or not?

If so, is the Behringer Xenyx QX1204USB a good alternative to replace my scarlett 2i2?

I don't know much about it, that's why I'm asking for help!

Thank you very much and I hope I was clear (I use a translator)
Click to expand...
The SM58 does have low output, which is typical for dynamic microphones, and the 2i2 does not have the most gain available, so between the two, unprocessed audio might be low for streaming. The SM58 also has considerable "proximity effect" which makes the low frequencies louder when you have your mouth close to the microphone, and that can contribute to the "muffled" sound you are hearing. The low gain of the microphone, and probably lower output since I assume you are only speaking and not singing (loudly) can make you move your mouth closer to the microphone, making the proximity effect worse. This can be especially problematic if you have a lower, e.g., baritone, kind of voice.

The short answer usually is to either use a more sensitive microphone, or increase the gain on the SM58.

Using a different kind of microphone usually means something like a condenser, which will have more gain, and probably something you can be a little further from the microphone. But, because it is more sensitive, they are more prone to pick up all of the sounds in your recording space, so that may be a tradeoff that is not an improvement, i.e., you may have a less muffled sound, but the noise level may be too high. The Beta58 has a little more gain, 3.5dB from what I found online, so might be easier on your 2i2, or let you stay a bit further away from the microphone. (It has a super-cardioid pattern, vs. the SM58's cardioid, so may have some more noise susceptibility, depending on your space/room.)

A lot of folks introduce more gain into their audio path by using an inline preamp like the Cloudlifter with dynamic microphones like the SM58.

As [MENTION=178786]rob aylestone[/MENTION] says, hearing a recorded track would be helpful. (I always ask for the raw WAV file, put in a Dropbox or similar, but rarely get it.)
 
FetHead - TRITONAUDIO inline phantom powered preamp.

Gives a high impedance (22kohm) termination to a dynamic microphone which will alter the high end frequency response to yield an improved clarity. The added gain gain means you can back away from the mic as well to reduce proximity effect (and possibly pick up more room noise). Can be mounted directly to the mic to allow use of just one XLR cable.

I do have a FetHead that works well with an SM7b and SM57's. Never have tried a Cloudlifter as the Fethead was quite a bit cheaper and I like cheap :D. I believe the Cloudlifter has a 3Kohm input impedance which is a little higher than most preamps/interfaces. There are a few other similar inline preamps as well on the market.
 
Thank you for your response

I didn't understand everything (maybe my translator) but I'll try to answer so that you can have as much detail as possible.

1)I have a rather deep voice and I usually speak very close to the microphone which has a little foam. (I can give it a little kiss without any problem to give you an idea)

2) The problem is that if I increase the gain on the foscurite 2i2, it turns red! Which means that with a mixer, I could increase the gain even more without going to red? I also increased the gains on streamlabs to 11.

3) If I have to buy something, I personally prefer it to be a mixing desk, because I will need it for the stream and it could make it easier for me! I've seen that some types of mixers, especially the one I mentioned, have a compressor which is a good thing!

4) After my researches, the beta 58A would be really better and as you said, it has a higher basic gain!

What do you advise me ?

Is it worth taking the beta 58A to have a better audio quality ?

I take the beta 58A with a mixer ?

I stay with the SM58 while having something like a mixer that will allow me to increase the gain even more and have a less "deaf" voice?

For the recordings, I'll do that tomorrow if you want to
A normal recording and a recording made from the stream with parameters.

Thank you for your answers :thumbs up:
 
Twiky said:
Thank you for your response

I didn't understand everything (maybe my translator) but I'll try to answer so that you can have as much detail as possible.

1)I have a rather deep voice and I usually speak very close to the microphone which has a little foam. (I can give it a little kiss without any problem to give you an idea)

2) The problem is that if I increase the gain on the foscurite 2i2, it turns red! Which means that with a mixer, I could increase the gain even more without going to red? I also increased the gains on streamlabs to 11.

3) If I have to buy something, I personally prefer it to be a mixing desk, because I will need it for the stream and it could make it easier for me! I've seen that some types of mixers, especially the one I mentioned, have a compressor which is a good thing!

4) After my researches, the beta 58A would be really better and as you said, it has a higher basic gain!

What do you advise me ?

Is it worth taking the beta 58A to have a better audio quality ?

I take the beta 58A with a mixer ?

I stay with the SM58 while having something like a mixer that will allow me to increase the gain even more and have a less "deaf" voice?

For the recordings, I'll do that tomorrow if you want to
A normal recording and a recording made from the stream with parameters.

Thank you for your answers :thumbs up:
Click to expand...

1) this is your problem. A deep voice right on almost any mic will accentuate the low frequencies, and create nothing but mud. You *must* back away from the microphone, or get a very different kind of microphone that does not exhibit proximity effect.

2) that means you are clipping the interface, and so that will only make it sound worse. You should try to get a sensible amount of gain going into your application so you only have to boost it a little bit, if at all. (I am not familiar with Streamlabs.)

3) Some mixers have compressors, but that's not going to fix your "muffled" problem. You can also buy an interface that supports DSPs, like compressors.

4) If you put your lips on the Beta58a, it will not sound appreciably better, just louder.

Really, your sound quality problem is, IMHO, due more to your technique than equipment, though too low gain may be contributing.

I think [MENTION=190964]arcaxis[/MENTION] has a good solution, and I'd add a pop screen/filter to your setup so you can keep your lips a good 3" (75mm) away from your microphone.

If you are set on buying something and really want a mixer, something with a good amount of clean gain, and EQ will probably let you keep using the SM58 while you save for that SM7b that all the kids want these days.
 
If the LEDs go red, there's too much, not too little gain. A good trick with a 58 is a very big foam windshield - the type reporters have their channel's name screen printed on. The foam keeps your lips a bit further away. Beta 58s are a bit more refined than a 58, but close in, still have that extra body that thinner voiced people like. Do you know people you could borrow a few mics from? Cheap condensers that often get slammed for having a bright and sometimes tinny sound could be perfect for you, if they match your voice.
 
I don't want the sm7b, after seeing a lot of video about it, I find it's not worth the price difference with the sm58 (in my opinion). So yes, maybe it will be better for my needs, that's for sure ...

I use an anti-pop foam for the SM58 a bit like this one:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51H7Ibban4L._AC_SL1001_.jpg


Yes, if it's red, it's too much gain and therefore not good. So the SM58 still has a low basic gain, I think.
While the BETA 58A has more basic gain.

I don't know what to do, I really find that the sound in streaming for example, is not really sharp or I don't have the right settings, I don't know.
The S8A beta may not solve the muffled sound problem, but it will still have a higher gain yes.

I don't have a friend using this kind of microphone, but I'm thinking of buying the beta 58A to make a comparison.

So in your opinion, what I should do is talk a little less close to the mic and increase the gain? What I just did and I find that up close, it's much sharper and lower and at 2 cm over there, the sound may be less muffled, but you can hear me less clearly.

I find the cloudfiter too expensive and I prefer to invest in a mixing desk personally

So, a mixing desk, won't solve the problem of the microphone (at the low sound level) ? Or I could have a better gain with a mixer ?

Thank you !
 
Twiky said:
....
So in your opinion, what I should do is talk a little less close to the mic and increase the gain? What I just did and I find that up close, it's much sharper and lower and at 2 cm over there, the sound may be less muffled, but you can hear me less clearly.

I find the cloudfiter too expensive and I prefer to invest in a mixing desk personally

So, a mixing desk, won't solve the problem of the microphone (at the low sound level) ? Or I could have a better gain with a mixer ?

Thank you !
Click to expand...
You could help us by providing a raw track of your recorded voice. Use Audacity and just save the WAV file with your interface set so it does not clip (red light on). Record your muffled voice (close) and then at something like 5cm, at least. You can increase the gain at the interface a little once you move away. Post the file on Dropbox, etc.

There are cheaper options than the Cloudlifter but I guess I’n hesitant to say what will get you where you want to be without hearing where you are.
 
Ah, in see. Mics have output level, not gain. Beta versions have more output, but in your case, you have plenty of output so it's a non-issue. Preamp gain is not a problem in your circumstances.
 
IMHO Twicky, your first idea of a mixer was the best one! But, not as you envisaged it, a USB mixer. Whist you will find it hard to find any 'budget' mixer without USB capability it is best ignored.

No, the mixer drives the 2i2 line inputs using a pair of TRS 'stereo' jack to jack cables. This arrangement confers several advantages.

1) More gain with a lower noise level is often available from quite modest mixers than many AIs (though I understand the 2i2 is pretty good in that respect)
2) Mixers often have more headroom than small AIs because they use higher internal supply voltages.
3) You will certainly have a bass cut/boost control per mic channel and possibly a bass cut switch (posh name "High Pass Filter") This is just what you need. You will also get treble boost/cut (go easy on the boost) and quite possibly MID B/C as well...AND even some some quite affordable mixers give you 'sweepable' mid control as well!

Other benefits are 'pan' you can plug in a single mic and have it feed both line ins of the 2i2 and thus get a solid, central phantom sound image. Almost all the USB mixer feed the converter PRE EQ and pan and so are IMO poorly designed and less useful than they might be.

The mixer, even one with only two mic inputs, will have additional line inputs that can accept other sound sources such as music, effects etc.

Of course, all the above assumes you are streaming in real time? If you are making 'programmes' to stream later you can do it all in software.

My son uses a similar setup for guitar. He feeds a Behringer UMC204HD from a Soundcraft 8FX notebook mixer (USB but has the limitations noted) and incorporates a Jam Man looper pedal in the system.
His is not real time use but the ability to EQ and pan going in suits his M.O. The mixer also gives him a strong, zero latency headphone feed.

Dave.
 
Again, if I'm going to buy something, it would be a mixer that makes sure I have a nice, clean voice with a compressor when I'm screaming streaming and stuff.

I just noticed that I had a compressor on streamlabs, I didn't imagine for a second that it would be a big part of that for the muffled voice. I removed the built-in compressor filter with streamlabs, and it's much better. But not as better as I would like it to be. It's still a bit of a mess.

I'm not looking for dbx 286s or anything like that. There are mixing desks with everything integrated and I prefer that. Well, I would avoid to go on a GOXLR because of the price even if it's very tempting ahah.

Here's the recording with audacity And I say in French, "I'm currently with the SM58."

There are two recordings and I can be heard twice each time.

The first one is up close (my lips are almost touching the foam and I'm up to 7-8 I would say.

The second one is a bit further away with the gain at maximum (10)

1) WeTransfer

1) WeTransfer
 
Oh yes! Very 'wooly' definitely in need of some high pass filtering. I had better come clean here anhd mention that I am clinically deaf, got the aids, T shirt, full Monty and 'dark' voices are anathema to me (as are ANY kind of regional accents be they Asian or Glaswegian! But I do my best.

My son is in France! Le Havre. English but been there years now and has more trouble speaking to me than his french pals! (I do NOT attempt my high school French of 60 years ago!)

So yes, a mixer going into the 2i2 would I am sure be the answer. You mention "compression"? That can be found in mixers of course. Mostly on just the two main outs ('bus' compressor) but some have one per channel. Yamaha MG10 M? However, what you really need for the shouty stuff is a 'limiter' and that will be like rocking horse droppings. Still, a compressor will do the job with some setup care.

Now, I am not sure but I think you implied that you wanted a 'one box solution' that is a mixer/interface? AFAIK you will not find one that puts EQ, and pan on the USB feed and maybe not even compression. Yes if you go to top pro prices but not run of the mill stuff.

Dave.
 
You made me laugh. :laughings::laughings:

1) So according to you, a mixing desk would be the solution?
It's not possible a mixing desk polyvalent with also a sound card integrated/high pass/compressor ect.. in it and everything else so that it might be better or it's useless and I might as well keep my foscurite 2i2?

2) Otherwise the yamaha you sent me looks really good!
Too bad it's not the pads that you climb up or down / down or up like this one Behringer Xenyx QX1204USB – Thomann France
Does that sound simpler and better?

3) So it's useless to take beta 58a to get a better and clearer voice? I did my research and many people say that the SM58 has become "old" and that beta 58a is better.
Frankly, from my experience, I don't think so. I bought the blue bird SL which I paid back today because there was absolutely no difference except maybe it was sharper with the high pass but otherwise NOTHING at all. All I had to do for the comparison was to increase the gain of the SM58 to be at the same level as the blue bird SL because it is stronger on the base.
On the stream and friends told me that he preferred the SM58 and that it wasn't worth the price difference.
So the beta 58a, I cant see what can bring more than the SM58 apart from the stronger basic gain and can be a better little sound

Thanks :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Twiky said:
But here's the thing, I find that the sound is "muffled" and that the microphone gain is low, I won't be able to explain it!
Click to expand...

Listening to your clip, what you have is nice enough sounding voice recording.
The first sounds healthier (second sounds pushed...too high gain?), but it could do with being slightly louder and slightly clearer.


To sound louder on stream there's a few things to talk about.

First, if you're hitting red on your interface/input path at any point then that is not where you want to turn things up. Red = limit : You don't get louder than that...at peak anyway.
Generally you set interface/preamp gain such that your loudest peaks are close-ish to going red, but never red.
If you're someone with high dynamic range (sudden screams?) then that means your average talking is going to be really quiet. That's where you'd use a limiter or compressor.
Something to tame the extremes and make the average able to be louder.

If, however, you can just talk at a normal level, with healthy gain, and your listeners say the output is too low then your OS or streaming software may be attenuating the signal at some point.

I think
A: Check that OS and streaming software don't have input level controls which are turned down.
B: Consider a compressor (hardware or software) if you are very dynamic with sudden shouts or screams.
C: Consider an eq (hardware or software) if you think your output is healthy, volume wise, but not quite crips or clear enough.

Comparing to any other semi-pro/pro streams or podcasts or whatever, you're almost always comparing to a processed, eqd, compressed, 'maximised' recording.
It's just like comparing to radio - To compete you pretty much have to use the same tools + processes.

Another microphone may be naturally crisper sounding but I still think you'd probably need post processing anyway so, IMO, you may as well stick with the 58 and work on the process,
then revisit gear-purchasing after that, if you think it's necessary.
 
The thing to remember is that every industry has a tool that you’d miss for lots of reasons. Leather man multi tools are not the best tool in the world but they’re genuinely useful, because they do the job. A 58 is not a brilliant mic but is just good at most things. Some singers or instruments need specific mics to shine but if you don’t have one, a 58 does a damn good job. A beta 58 is not the same. It can do a very poor job on some voices and a really good job on others. It’s polar pattern means feedback in a live situation is different to a 58 and I can’t be absolutely certain but I think they age differently. One of my 57s I bought in 1976 and I don’t know which one it is! And please - mics do NOT have gain, they have sensitivity and output. Electronics have gain. Very different.
 
"and please - mics do NOT have gain, they have sensitivity and output. Electronics have gain. Very different."

Don't know your age Rob but now into my 75th year I have almost given up trying to 'edukate' the masses!

Speaker 'efficiency' instead of Sensitivity, decibels with no reference and 'RMS' bloody watts! I now let it all wash over me as I am tired of trying. Peeps just think you are a pedantic old fart in any case (well I am but they don't have to TELL me!).

I have admit that I know virtually nothing about "streaming' or podcasting and really am only competent to comment up to where the signal enters the PC via USB.


I am still you see not sure if the OP is doing this in real time? If so I shall stand by my statement that he needs a mixer afront the 2i2 (which is acting just as an A/D converter practically). He could do EQ in the software but that means latency and of course, the overs will crack the mic pre so a software compressor is a late bolt on the stable door.

Ok, I will admit is it a bit of a kludge and messy but since nobody puts pan, eq and dynamics in an AI what can you do? Yes, you have all three in a mixer but NOT routed through the USB circuit.

Then there is of course the Rodecaster. Very nice by all accounts but pricey.

Dave.
 
Ah yes, the Rodecaster is expensive. :laughings:

One question, on the bluebird SL the mode which is on the left, I was on the horizontal bar on the right and not on the bar on the left which has a downward curvature.
https://www.thomann.de/pics/bdb/411712/12036666_800.jpg
Exactly what mode was I in (the one on the right with a horizontal line)? I liked the voice it gave, it was clear and I'd like to find that good sound again!
Is this mode also found in the mixers you mentioned and that I mentioned?


So if I go on this table or on this table ...
Yamaha MG10 XU – Thomann France
OR
Behringer Xenyx QX1204USB – Thomann France
OR
Behringer Xenyx X1204 USB – Thomann France

I would have the preamp, the compression and then I would have to plug the sound card into the mixer? But I could also increase/decrease the gain of my voice with the mixer?



For streaming, I rectified this following your message !
I was already aware of the red line and it's true that I never had any problem (I was a bit off the mark.) So there you go, I'm in the yellow and when I shout, it goes a bit in the red. I tend to raise my voice very loudly sometimes. I've tried to adjust the flow to make sure that if I shout, it's not in the red, but if I speak normally, I can be heard faintly... So, yes, I think I need a mixer with functions that will allow me to solve this problem.

I've done some tests again, except by talking up close (practically touching the anti-pop foam) and by talking a bit further, and by talking a bit further, it's finally not as clear as talking up close. I think I speak with a good distance since the foam is already quite thick.
 
I can see little difference between the two Behringers? They both have the facilities I suggested. I am swayed toward the Yamaha though because it seems less 'busy' with a clearer layout and it has rotary channel controls instead of linear faders. The latter might look 'cool' but really have no advantages when you will have a 'set and forget' system? They can also get knocked and spoil the show.

Nice to see all three mixers have a High Pass Filter on them. That and the 3 band EQ should give you really nice 'punch' to your voice.

*You could, I suppose feed the mixer into the 3.5mm input jack on the PC? But don't.

Dave.

The "soundcard" does not plug into the mixer. The mixer plugs into the 2i2 interface*. This is the setup son uses. (can do a rough drawing if you want).
 
I cannot see me ever going back to external audio mixers. I could use one of the three digital and two large Analogue mixers I have in stock but there’s no benefit at all for my music recording. Compression and effects are so much easier and available in Cubase that I use for most things. A gain knob on the interface is my only manual control nowadays.
 
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