Professional Sounding Results

BradD

New member
This really isn't a mic question, but this seems to be the most popular forum. To those of you who manage to get professional sounding results in your home studio, how long did it take you to get there. I started recording seriously about three years ago, and have amassed more debt than I care to admit on gear and room acoustics. In addition, I've read everything I can get my hands on in do things right. Still, my songs have a certain amateur quality to them which continues to drive me batty.

Is this a never ending battle, or one day do you just wake up and your songs sound great?
 
BradD said:
Still, my songs have a certain amateur quality to them which continues to drive me batty.

Are you recording your own stuff, your band, or other people? What kind of music is it and what instruments are you using?
 
don't forget that commercial releases are all mastered by a professional! costs about 2 to 3000 for an album
 
Thanks guys. I don't produce/engineer other bands, it's just me and one other guy. I'm a proficient keyboardist and he is a decent guitarist. I also play some guitar and am now trying to add acoustic drums to either replace or supplement midi drums. We've had a guy play some bass tracks for us, but eventually we'd like to do that ourselves too. We play basic rock and are influenced by the likes of Simon & Garfunkel, The Beatles, Bob Seger, Pink Floyd, etc.

We're recording to a Digi 001 through the stock converters. Our only outboard pre is currently the RNP. This leaves the snare and kick to run through the Digi pres, while I use the RNP for overheads. This is obviously not ideal. My next purchase is going to be the Great River MP-2NV so I can avoid the Digi pres altogether. We also currently don't use any outboard compresssors. We have a good mic collection so I don't believe that is the problem. My basement is fairly well treated, but has only 7ft. ceilings.

Anything you guys have done that has "made the light go on?"
 
BradD said:
I'm a proficient keyboardist and he is a decent guitarist.

Alright, now we're getting somewhere. Now, I have a few other very important questions for you:

* What brand/model of keyboard are you using? And are you going direct or amp mic'ing when you record (if so, what kind of amp)?

* What brand and model of guitar is your partner playing? Accoustic or electric?

I also play some guitar and am now trying to add acoustic drums to either replace or supplement midi drums.


Ouch! Now we're getting somewhere. You are trying to replace and/or supplement midi drums. Just a hint: this might be a major source of your problem. You also say you are trying to add some accoustic drums? :D

What is meant by trying? If you mean that you aren't a drummer, and you're trying to learn to play, then that also puts up a pretty big red flag for a lot of reasons. If you are using a real drummer, then how experienced is he, and what kind of kit does he have? How regularly does he maintain his drum kit ; ie -- is he good at tuning and tightening the heads and so on?

We've had a guy play some bass tracks for us, but eventually we'd like to do that ourselves too.


Alright, I'm starting to see a pattern develop here in that it doesn't sound as though we have everything hashed out as to who is playing what. Really good recordings are usually made by those who have clearly defined roles -- for each instrument, and each person is experienced and practiced at each instrument . . . has outstanding equipment that is well-maintained, and knows how to get great sound out of it.


My basement is fairly well treated, but has only 7ft. ceilings.


That can be a major factor, as well. When you say "fairly well treated," try and be more specific here. How is it treated? With what? Tell us about your monitoring environment? What kind of monitors are you using, and tell us what kind of treatment you're using for that area?
 
There are also the questions of what you mean by a "professionally sounding result". If you mean producing music that sounds like what you hear on the radio, then you need to start analyzing what's different between your production and the radio production.

For example, most commercial releases are *heavily* compressed. This increases the perceived volume, so that the song sounds louder on the radio. Many, many of us engineers think that the loudness wars have gone way too far, and have taken a lot of the life out of the music.

How do your arrangements compare to what you hear? Find an artist or artists with a similar musical style that you like. Pull his/her songs apart - what is going on in the background -- what different instruments can you hear, etc.

How do your songs compare? Its very difficult to make a bad song sound good -- and easier to make a good song sound good.

Compare the sound of each instrument - how does your vocal compare to the one you like? How does your guitar compare? Then, one thing at a time, figure out what they did to get the sound you like.

Check out things like the Homerecording.com collection CD or the collection CD set from the newsgroup rec.audio.pro (you can get it from Harvey). Nothing beats listening to the songs with liner notes, or being able to ask folks..."How did you do that?".

Check out sites that talk about microphone placement for various recording situations - there's a TON of great info out there!

Put on your flame proof underwear, toughen your skin, and post some of your music where folks can hear it and make comments.

Good luck!
-lee-
 
Asking what's wrong without posting some samples is like asking the doctor to diagnose you over the phone.

Put up some sounds so we can hear what your doing and make some suggestions.
 
What I'm getting at is that there's a lot more that goes in to it than the quality of the recording gear and the engineering skills.

Brad asked if there was anything that made the proverbial "light go on," and I'd have to say absolutely.

The light really went on the very first time I recorded a bonifide professional drummer; the dude had been recording and gigging for most of his adult life and making a good living at it. Dude walked in, set up, had an amazing-sounding kit. All heads perfectly tuned, cymbals crisp but not too bright. When he played, he sounded like a well-produced record right there in the room.

I also had a jazz band come in several weeks later. That was probably my second epiphone. Up untill then, it had been somewhat of a struggle for me to get guitar tones that I was really happy with. I thought maybe I just wasn't using the right mic, or maybe I needed to experiment more, yada yada yada. Guitar player walks in with this beautiful shiny guitar, and plugs it in to a lush sounding amp. I thought I was in heaven just listening to it right there in that room.

Dude told me he spent a small fortune and was still in debt for it all, but he wanted the best. You could tell right then his rig was several hundred notches up from the toys my past clients had been bringing in up to that point. You just had to be there to hear that tone.

Probably two of the easiest mic'ing jobs I can remember. Guys like that with equipment like -- not to mention skills like that -- can really make someone look like a great engineer. :D
 
I second chessrock...

Get a great source and it'll be easy to capture that source. Get a lousy source and it will be impossible to 'fix' it. I know the best sounding recording I've made was with a minidisc, a few cheap microphones and a small behringer mixer, but boy, were those great musicians!!


edit: recording material is there to capture sounds and reproduce them while trying to keep the quality, not to enhance the quality...

Herwig
 
Its not that high... Brad Blackwood will do mastering for about $200 a song, which is about $2000 for a 10 song album, give or take $500...
 
edit: recording material is there to capture sounds and reproduce them while trying to keep the quality, not to enhance the quality...


Not true. Lots of gear is made to enhance certain things... take a Distressor or Fatso, or many mics for instance. Mics are all over the enhancement thing... try an MD-421 on dirty guitars, or a U-195 or an Elux on vocals.... etc etc etc. It matters and makes a difference.

The source is always top priority, though. Its also rare to have the best source for every track (or any track really). When you do, exploit it.

I'm using an RNP mainly and I feel that I get great sounds from it. What mics are you using and how good IS your source and your technique?
 
Others on this thread know way more than me, but I'm going to come at this from a different angle. Not to minimize the other suggestions which are all great, but I wonder if the problem is in the final mix/mastering phase. It seems to me this is where a recording will often wind up sounding "amateurish". Reverbs not set properly, vocals too low, sense of depth missing, no sound-stage, etc. Rather than adding more equipment, I'll bet you aren't yet getting the most out of what you have. I think it would be a good idea to take a CD of your stuff to a local engineer and see what they think.

Another area to look at is just how your songs are being produced, in terms of dynamics, transients, imaginative use of instrumentation. Are you being as creative as you can be in how each song unfolds or is it the same treatment for all?

Also, have a listen to Janis Ian's "Breaking Silence." From what I understand, no limiters were used, it's a very clean production. Or Clint Black's D'Electrified. Compare what they've done with what you have and see if you can pick out the differences (I think this may have been suggested).

It's interesting you mention the Beatles as a source of material... They used to record instruments in the whackiest way just to get a different sound, yet it all still came together. Short of having George Martin stop by, I think if you take your recording apart and put them together piece by piece, you can get to the sound you want. You sound a bit discouraged. Don't be. When you get "the sound" you'll feel that much better.
 
Mark7 said:
Surely you mean per song :confused:

well i got a quote from oasis mastering in california and they quoted me a 16 track lp, one day of mastering one master cd for about 2300....they may treat majors differently...i dunno
 
Thanks for all the suggestions. I think Chess has a point. I may be trying to do more than I'm capable of doing from a musician standpoint. Drums are my third instrument and it may be necessary for me to have a real drummer come in to cut the final product.

As far as the kinds of equipment we have, here's a run-down. My keyboards include a Roland XP-80, Roland JP-8000, Roland FP3(digital piano), and a Hammond A-102 with Leslie 147. All except the Hammond are recorded direct to the RNP. The Leslie is usually recorded with either Neumann KM-184s or SM57s depending on the sound I'm going for. Keyboards don't seem to be a problem in our mixes.

When I say I play some guitar, I mean there are a few songs that I have written where I play some of the acoustic parts with my Yamaha LS-400 through the KM-184s. No huge problems with that.

My partner plays a Rickenbocker 330 electric that sounds very nice, through an OK Yamaha amp that we usually mic with a 57. Our electric sounds fairly respectable. He also plays a Takamine acoustic that actually records pretty well.

Bass and drums are obviously our week points. I purchased a Tama Rockstar set with Ziljdian symbols and added a Stewart Copeland Tama snare. The drums sound good. I've gotten decent at tuning, but obviously my playing needs to improve for recording purposes. I use the KM-184s as overheads and a D112 on kick and a 57 on snare.

Probably the best thing we could do is to find a dependable drummer and bass player. Right now the process is to use Midi drums to start with and then play real drums over the top until the timing matches perfectly, and then erase the MIDI drums.

I'll try to post some of our stuff in the near future. Thanks for all the help.
 
Have you heard Groove Agent yet ? It's an ok drum pattern player with nice sounds, and the good thing is you can let it write down its midi part so you can replace the stock sounds with your own samples...


Herwig
 
chessrock said:
I also had a jazz band come in several weeks later. That was probably my second epiphone.
Did you mean "...the 2nd Epiphone guitar you;ve ever recorded..."?? Or did you mean "epiphany" as in "revelation"??????

:D :D
 
i know that a problem i have had in the past was to start recording before i had the best sound to start with. Its easy to say "that sounds pretty good...lets record this sucker". Then you end up with a fantastic performance but the tracks all have problems like: too much distortion on the guitar, bad mic placement on the acoustc guitar, the signal on some things was not hot enough going into the recorder...ect...so on and so on.

Now I spend more time setting up and tweaking the instrument and mics than I do actually recording the track.

That has made a HUGE difference in my recording quality.

like it has been said on this site over and over again...if you have garbage going in your gonna have garbage coming out
 
Blue Bear Sound said:
Did you mean "...the 2nd Epiphone guitar you;ve ever recorded..."?? Or did you mean "epiphany" as in "revelation"??????

:D :D
Judging by the context it's in, I'd say he ment epiphany.
I was born a recording monster.:D
 
Just a small little tip, probably isn't going to change much, but...


I would use the RNP on your kick and snare, not the overheads. Good preamps make a much larger difference with dynamic mics than with condensers.
 
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