Is it possible to get that EVH sound with JUST 2 SM57's like the rumor?

stratmaster713

New member
Is it possible to get that EVH sound with JUST 2 SM57's like the rumor? Obviously, you have to have a good guitar rig to begin with, but I have tried every placement possible with SM57's, and I am not capturing anywhere near that tone they got on VHI and VHII.. I tried on axis, off axis, combinations. My 421 seems to come WAY closer than anything the SM57's are capturing?

Anyone have any ideas on how they recorded VH's cab, or if the SM57 x2 rumor is true?
 
I'm with you man... I've been obsessing with 2 even 3 sm57's for a few months now trying to get something remotely close to the sounds they got on VH1 through 1984 and I just am not hitting it. SM57's have a unique tone and i seem to be getting the worst of those tones. I also get sick of people treating me like a newb in some places and suggesting i learn how to place a mic or look for clipping. Seriously, that's pretty obvious. I think a lot of it might have to do with the room and the speakers that were used. Starting to doubt that greenbacks were the only thing mic'ed. Higher wattage speakers with less breakup perhaps but still, i don't hear that tone coming from the mics. My setup isn't shit either. I have a jcm800 and a randall lynch box with modded modules that kill (hilligan, my own etc..) Can you post some clips? They probably ended up combining a 421 in there..
 
I'm with you man... I've been obsessing with 2 even 3 sm57's for a few months now trying to get something remotely close to the sounds they got on VH1 through 1984 and I just am not hitting it. SM57's have a unique tone and i seem to be getting the worst of those tones. I also get sick of people treating me like a newb in some places and suggesting i learn how to place a mic or look for clipping. Seriously, that's pretty obvious. I think a lot of it might have to do with the room and the speakers that were used. Starting to doubt that greenbacks were the only thing mic'ed. Higher wattage speakers with less breakup perhaps but still, i don't hear that tone coming from the mics. My setup isn't shit either. I have a jcm800 and a randall lynch box with modded modules that kill (hilligan, my own etc..) Can you post some clips? They probably ended up combining a 421 in there..

Glad I'm not alone! Haha, I have a EVH replica I built thru a TSL100 thru greenbacks and I have tried EVERYTHING. I usually get compliments on my tone when we play live so I'm not far off from a good tone it seems. Something is wrong with my method of Mic's used for recording or the placement. I've pretty much determined the SM57 is sub-par to a M421. Unfortunately, my marshall stack is 4hrs away from where I am right now, and I would post a clip. But what I can do is mic up the amp I have with me with a 421 with the way I've found to be best and you wont believe the amp I'm playing through for it. I'll post it sometime today
 
I never did understand why people obsess over the Van Halen sound on the first record. But, over the years I put on my best Magnum PI mustache and actually helped a few people coming stupidly close. It's a huge jigsaw puzzle, and if one piece is 'missing', well you know the rest. Here are my notes.

* The self-titled debut album (Van Halen) was recorded at Sunset Sound Recorders studio in mid September to early October 1977, and released in 1978. Think about the gear that was available then. SM57's, sure, but some engineers and producers are getting very creative.
* The engineer was Don Landee, and the producer was Ted Templeman.
* This same set-up was also responsible for the Montrose albums 'Montrose' (1973) and 'Paper Money' (1974). When 'Jump On It' is released in 1976, Ronnie Montrose is already being criticized for having lost his tone. The 1975 release 'Warner Brothers Presents....... Montrose!' has Charles Faris as engineer and Ronnie Montrose producing. The 'Jump On It' album is recorded by Jay Messina and produced by Jack Douglas. To be fair, the departure of Sammy Hagar is also seen as a big factor in the poor reviews and sales of these two albums.
* I mention the Don Landee and Ted Templeman connection because it is also a simple fact to prove the the tones are remarkably similar between the early Montrose and Van Halen albums.
* Rumors have it that when Mo Ostin and Ted Templeman 'discovered' Van Halen (performing as 'Mammoth') at the Starwood, they were almost immediately offered a recording contract with Warner Brothers, the same record company releasing Montrose records. Eddie Van Halen, having been quite displeased with the recording process Gene Simmons was thrusting upon him at New York's Electric Lady Studios, specifically asked for the 'Montrose' process. Gene Simmons and Van Halen parted ways, and Van Halen looked for an exclusive deal recording with Don Landee and Ted Templeman.
* Aside from having the entire signal chain to the guitar, you need the signal chain as seen by the mystery combination of whatever microphones. That means the same recording console, the same tape deck, the same tape, etc. These will all add their own phase and harmonic distortions. Also, the same recording machine operating at 15ips will sound different than operating at 30ips. Why this is so is a mystery, but the low end (around 100Hz or 150Hz) and the high end (around 4KHz for some machines, 7kHz for others) response is absolutely different, even after a bias adjustment.
* Now add the distortions related to the lathing and pressing process of the vinyl album.

Are you still with me? OK. Now, in a later Mix magazine interview, engineer George Peterson relates this story (that is also part advertisement);

Years ago, I had the pleasure of recording guitar genius Ronnie Montrose. In anticipation of his arrival—and to save time—I set up about six different mics: condensers, tubes and dynamics. When Montrose showed up, he said that he had a favorite mic and asked if we could try that, as well. He pulled out a Sennheiser MD 409 dynamic with a flat-bar mount that slid into a slot cut into his amp, putting the mic about an inch in front of the grille and toward the edge of the speaker cone. We tried them all, and sure enough, his mic won out over everything else! I became an instant convert to the mystic MD 409 cult and was greatly saddened when Sennheiser (what were they thinking?) discontinued the 409 a few years later. Later, Sennheiser came out with the Evolution 609, which resembled the original but wasn't the same. Fortunately, with the debut of the e609 Silver, the magic is back. Like the original, it's a side-address design so it can be simply hung over an amp, suspended by the cable (with three inches of duct tape to secure it) and be exactly in the sweet spot. With its high-SPL handling and supercardioid pattern to eliminate any bleed, this one's ready for anything. On a variety of amps the e609 Silver was spot-on, particularly when combined with a distant tube mic. The Sennheiser provided the punch, fury, growl and edge, with the room mic adding a smooth hugeness.

There's other rumors about hot humbuckers, DS-1's and GE-10's, Variacs, Marshall mods, and the list goes on. And Eddie being a notorious bullsh*tter only makes the trail even more difficult to follow. So why bother? If it's a challenge you want, go for it. Years from now you'll wonder why you took on a challenge like this.
 
Years ago, I had the pleasure of recording guitar genius Ronnie Montrose. In anticipation of his arrival—and to save time—I set up about six different mics: condensers, tubes and dynamics. When Montrose showed up, he said that he had a favorite mic and asked if we could try that, as well. He pulled out a Sennheiser MD 409 dynamic with a flat-bar mount that slid into a slot cut into his amp, putting the mic about an inch in front of the grille and toward the edge of the speaker cone. We tried them all, and sure enough, his mic won out over everything else! I became an instant convert to the mystic MD 409 cult and was greatly saddened when Sennheiser (what were they thinking?) discontinued the 409 a few years later. Later, Sennheiser came out with the Evolution 609, which resembled the original but wasn't the same. Fortunately, with the debut of the e609 Silver, the magic is back. Like the original, it's a side-address design so it can be simply hung over an amp, suspended by the cable (with three inches of duct tape to secure it) and be exactly in the sweet spot. With its high-SPL handling and supercardioid pattern to eliminate any bleed, this one's ready for anything. On a variety of amps the e609 Silver was spot-on, particularly when combined with a distant tube mic. The Sennheiser provided the punch, fury, growl and edge, with the room mic adding a smooth hugeness.

There's other rumors about hot humbuckers, DS-1's and GE-10's, Variacs, Marshall mods, and the list goes on. And Eddie being a notorious bullsh*tter only makes the trail even more difficult to follow. So why bother? If it's a challenge you want, go for it. Years from now you'll wonder why you took on a challenge like this.

100 percent correct about feeling like you are chasing your own tail when you try to get Ed's exact tone. Luckily I am more interested in how the mics captured the tone of his amps... i would think that tone captured of any mic would be killer. I might look into the 609.. seems to me that it captures more of the highs and less of the mid range which is what the 57 seems to excel at. I also noticed over the last few years when looking at mics during live shows, that ever so familiar look of a square mic hanging over the edge of the cab. Sure as hell makes placement easier and prevents mic's from being kicked over. I'm not against a 421 or 57 or room mic being combined with the sound to create the big picture but a pair of 57's sure as hell doesn't get there. Glad I found this thread! I am going to see about renting a 421 and a 609 (or 906 would be similar I suppose but with mroe features?) and see where that gets me. Let's see if we can't help each other be happy with our recordings... i have blamed everything from my speaker cab (RI greenbacks and eminence super V 4 x 12) to the mic to my preamp onboard the presonus firepod. Yes the presonus may not be ideal but this has nothing o do with tube vs solid state preamps because to my knowledge a lot of preamps used in the 80's on big recordings were solid state..
 
I never did understand why people obsess over the Van Halen sound on the first record. But, over the years I put on my best Magnum PI mustache and actually helped a few people coming stupidly close. It's a huge jigsaw puzzle, and if one piece is 'missing', well you know the rest. Here are my notes.

* The self-titled debut album (Van Halen) was recorded at Sunset Sound Recorders studio in mid September to early October 1977, and released in 1978. Think about the gear that was available then. SM57's, sure, but some engineers and producers are getting very creative.
* The engineer was Don Landee, and the producer was Ted Templeman.
* This same set-up was also responsible for the Montrose albums 'Montrose' (1973) and 'Paper Money' (1974). When 'Jump On It' is released in 1976, Ronnie Montrose is already being criticized for having lost his tone. The 1975 release 'Warner Brothers Presents....... Montrose!' has Charles Faris as engineer and Ronnie Montrose producing. The 'Jump On It' album is recorded by Jay Messina and produced by Jack Douglas. To be fair, the departure of Sammy Hagar is also seen as a big factor in the poor reviews and sales of these two albums.
* I mention the Don Landee and Ted Templeman connection because it is also a simple fact to prove the the tones are remarkably similar between the early Montrose and Van Halen albums.
* Rumors have it that when Mo Ostin and Ted Templeman 'discovered' Van Halen (performing as 'Mammoth') at the Starwood, they were almost immediately offered a recording contract with Warner Brothers, the same record company releasing Montrose records. Eddie Van Halen, having been quite displeased with the recording process Gene Simmons was thrusting upon him at New York's Electric Lady Studios, specifically asked for the 'Montrose' process. Gene Simmons and Van Halen parted ways, and Van Halen looked for an exclusive deal recording with Don Landee and Ted Templeman.
* Aside from having the entire signal chain to the guitar, you need the signal chain as seen by the mystery combination of whatever microphones. That means the same recording console, the same tape deck, the same tape, etc. These will all add their own phase and harmonic distortions. Also, the same recording machine operating at 15ips will sound different than operating at 30ips. Why this is so is a mystery, but the low end (around 100Hz or 150Hz) and the high end (around 4KHz for some machines, 7kHz for others) response is absolutely different, even after a bias adjustment.
* Now add the distortions related to the lathing and pressing process of the vinyl album.

Are you still with me? OK. Now, in a later Mix magazine interview, engineer George Peterson relates this story (that is also part advertisement);

Years ago, I had the pleasure of recording guitar genius Ronnie Montrose. In anticipation of his arrival—and to save time—I set up about six different mics: condensers, tubes and dynamics. When Montrose showed up, he said that he had a favorite mic and asked if we could try that, as well. He pulled out a Sennheiser MD 409 dynamic with a flat-bar mount that slid into a slot cut into his amp, putting the mic about an inch in front of the grille and toward the edge of the speaker cone. We tried them all, and sure enough, his mic won out over everything else! I became an instant convert to the mystic MD 409 cult and was greatly saddened when Sennheiser (what were they thinking?) discontinued the 409 a few years later. Later, Sennheiser came out with the Evolution 609, which resembled the original but wasn't the same. Fortunately, with the debut of the e609 Silver, the magic is back. Like the original, it's a side-address design so it can be simply hung over an amp, suspended by the cable (with three inches of duct tape to secure it) and be exactly in the sweet spot. With its high-SPL handling and supercardioid pattern to eliminate any bleed, this one's ready for anything. On a variety of amps the e609 Silver was spot-on, particularly when combined with a distant tube mic. The Sennheiser provided the punch, fury, growl and edge, with the room mic adding a smooth hugeness.

There's other rumors about hot humbuckers, DS-1's and GE-10's, Variacs, Marshall mods, and the list goes on. And Eddie being a notorious bullsh*tter only makes the trail even more difficult to follow. So why bother? If it's a challenge you want, go for it. Years from now you'll wonder why you took on a challenge like this.

yeah EVH is a bull shitter for sure, anything he says could be wrong at any moment. Anyway here is a quick clip of me recording with a 421 on this little shitty amp i have for the time being.. NO EQ, compression, or anything other than a little reverb (and this clip isnt witih my evh replica either fwiw)View attachment Kyle Marsh - EVH riffs 421.mp3
 
Great clip there! Verb tastefully done... ok that's it, gonna check out a 421 and 609! That little amp sounds killer too... sometimes it isn't the gear, it is the fingers! What is your recording chain preamp wise?
 
Last edited:
I also get sick of people treating me like a newb in some places and suggesting i learn how to place a mic or look for clipping. Seriously, that's pretty obvious.

OMG n00b!! All you have to do is make sure it doesn't clip and learn how to place a mic!!!! :D

Haha just kidding :)

Good luck in your quest to reach the EVH sound! Fare thee well. I don't even attempt it :o
 
Great clip there! Verb tastefully done... ok that's it, gonna check out a 421 and 609! That little amp sounds killer too... sometimes it isn't the gear, it is the fingers! What is your recording chain preamp wise?

Thanks! My recording chain is a PV8 mixer (NOT the USB one either..) hahahahaha. Once I graduate I will buy an actual interface but for now it works.


Does anyone know EVH's live setup as far as cabs, miking, etc...? When I saw him live twice, I noticed they actually had 2 mics (or from what it appeared) infront of his cabinets on stage. I figured he would have had ISO cabs... Like what mikes do you think he uses live?
 
ah, perfect thread. new here so hey there.

i'm a relatively newer player. more of a builder but things are progressing...

i'm building a plexi and took on the whole new challenge of trying to get what I hear in the room on record to share, so i can get feedback from others on my builds and document changes to my amp.

my cabinets have a blend of prerola G12M25s and V30s. the combination is great live with the clear highs and lows of the 30s balancing out the mid growl from the GBs. however when i mic the GB, it sounds like what you hear here

w ww.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=11459944&q=hi&newref=1]MP3 Player SoundClick


Its muted and I lose the eccentuated mid growl. I almost like micing the V30 better because of the clear highs but I lose the character that the greenie gives.

i have a theory based on experience now that there was a condenser mic used to capture more of a live feel. listen to the iso tracks and you can tell the left side is not totally dry. this makes some sense since Ed's live tone defined VH back then. I pulled my Audix i5 (similar to SM57) back about 2 feet trying to get a blend of the two speakers and a little more air into the recording. it proved to work but the volume required to get decent levels to the mic was room shaking...:)

this 609 might prove to be a good solution to get the clarity back.

Wish I didnt open this can of worms...getting the right tone from the rest of the chain's been a deep enough rabbit hole itself.

Cheers!
 
I have to say, this is one of the more interesting threads I've read in some time.
Really appreciated ranjam's info and explanation of thought process.
 
Back
Top