The people who have never designed circuits explain why USB mics suck thread

All of the other objections--and I invite you to try them--are based upon your misunderstanding of digital and analog electronics. So let's hear them.


Bottom line: if a recordist wants a simple, no-fuss, no-muss method of recording *mono or stereo tracks only*, you are doing them a serious disservice by universally panning a class of microphones you largely haven't even tried. You are costing them money, and money=time, which means you are unnecessarily taking away a piece of their life. Please stop it.


Most USB mics seem to be made down to a price.

But that is not my main objection to a USB mic. - it is the lack of flexibility and being stuck.

Getting an external USB adaptor (EG: the CEntrance MicPort Pro) will give you the USB connection required and enable you to use whatever mic. you want. From a cheap inexpensive one at the start up to a high quality expensive one later.

Yes, of course, the technology is there to make a high quality USB mic., and some of them are very good - it's the lack of flexibility that I don't like.

Getting an external USB adaptor and choosing your mic. from a much wider choice seems the better option. And when USB is destined for the dustbin, you can keep your mic. and just buy a new adaptor to the latest format.

USB-1 is gone, USB-2 is on the way out, USB-3 is here but Thunderbolt is four times faster and more flexible than USB-3 and so on .....
 
Msh does touch on a lot of the aspects that have long bothered me about audio gear and gear pimps.

To hear Michael Joly talk a Neuman U87 sounds worse... or no better... then a modded Apex 460. If you spend any time browsing Mercenary's offerings you might well be convinced that you're waisting your time recording through a DMP3. For me there is always a point of diminishing returns and that point is invariably reached well before I get anywhere near a thousand dollars on any given piece of gear and usually well before I get near $300. And while I am upgrading the signal chain for the purpose of reliability and portability those are MUCH more quantifiable qualities, and the whole kit and kaboddle is still coming in for well under the cost of the 2 channel John Hardy preamp that once-upon-a-time I thought a good value for the money.

I was reading a treatise on treating a room to reduce flutter echo and standing waves and the author made the observation that when it comes to sound quality virtually all gear today is arguably 'good enough', that when recordings fail it is due to a crappy room and not because you bought a Behringer preamp. The Behringer may fall down for other reasons but it's more then likely to be perfectly adequate as far as audio quality.
 
It's no secret that I'm in search of a used *Blue Yeti* just for the convenience of what it has to offer -- Guess I'll see for myself when I one and report back with my thoughts.
 
At this point in the thread, Harvey Gerst will enter and post a mind-blowing track and when people ask what mic he used, he'll respond that he heard a loud bang from the interstate and ran out to find a tractor-trailer collision where the trucker's CB radio mic went flying out of the cab and got runover a few times, so he picked it up, cleaned out the gravel, and recorded a whole session with it :D


Somebody go and wake up Harvey - He missed his cue!
 
"...To hear Michael Joly talk a Neuman U87 sounds worse... or no better... then a modded Apex 460."

No, I've never said or implied that. And I've never posted a comparison of a U 87 vs a mod'd 460 either. So I don't know how you got that idea.

I do have an early '70's 'battery box" U 87 used as a reference so folks can hear my FET mics relative to that well-known mic. And I spent some serious cash at Capitol Studios hiring their U 47, U67 and M 49 mics (and some expensive engineering and vocal talent) - to demonstrate my tube mics against those well known mics. I make no claims about superiority but rather provide opportunities for folks to listen and come to their own conclusions. Cheers, MJ
 
Good! Excellent! I agree with everyone on the last two pages or so. Even Mr. Joly and I are feeling the love. Cue the Sir Elton music :cool:
 
Good! Excellent! I agree with everyone on the last two pages or so. Even Mr. Joly and I are feeling the love. Cue the Sir Elton music :cool:

Good! Excellent! I agree with everyone on the last two pages or so. Even Mr. Joly and I are feeling the love. Cue the Sir Elton music :cool:

My problems with mics including a built in A/D & USB interface has never been theoretical. The problems, and a general prejudice against them (which to date I don't think has included a public rant suggesting everyone ignore), stems from specific experience (with specific mics & implementation) in trying to help clients and acquaintances get the devices to function in ways they thought marketing promised, & which the devices seldom delivered. The same thing can be said of nearly any audio product. Personally I dislike the SM58 & most of its clones, but, in some ways contradictorily, am pretty OK with an SM7 (use one frequently when test driving mic pres with spoken word content).

Personally I've run into just way to many acquaintances for which readily available USB mics were not the right option. Particularly with regard to interconnection with tablets (and by extension smart phones) I will wait if not breathlessly then with high expectations for a Naiant USB option.

My live/field recording kit still includes 5 Naiants and a pair of Joly Modded MXL601s (or 603s or one 601 & an Apex?)
 
Smartphones *and* tablets can be a bit tricky, because many smartphones are USB OTG devices only, which means they can't supply any power. And then there are iOS devices that use the 30-pin which I think can dribble out a bit of power (I gave up aspirations of iOS development when the registration process asked me for the name of my IP attorney :rolleyes: Nevermind, ghost of Jobs, go back to blowing up Chinese workers . . . )

Whereas tablets can sometimes/often support low-power USB. So do you do a self-powered (with battery) device, or a low-power device? If you are writing your own firmware you can negotiate either option, but that's beyond me and I don't think mics with batteries are going to become commonplace.

I have been playing with prototypes for well over a year now but I am still trying to decide on a final feature set. What I will do will be more like the USB adaptor-type devices; it will look like one but the mic input will only support my capsule interface (which is 9V) and it can thus be a low-power device. It will allow use of a remote stereo pair or a single capsule mounted to the adaptor. Either way, this is clearly not the sort of simple solution desired by most USB mic customers, but I only do niche solutions so . . .
 
With respect to USB AC I don't agree, that is supported natively in nearly all computers and many portable devices. I have seen a much higher rate of driver difficulties over the years with Firewire interfaces, for example. I've never had a problem with a USB AC device; a USB device with its own flaky drivers, sure I believe that, but USB interfaces would potentially have the same difficulties. Again, if the physical circuit components are the same--which they largely are--why would there be a difference?

Then you're lucky. USB AC 1.0 sucks. Badly. Among other things, it provides no information about how different timing sources (sample rates) are related. If the input changes sample rates, should the output change? Maybe? Probably? The driver has to guess. This means that if you have a USB AC 1.0 device with a sample rate switch/button instead of it being entirely driven from the software side, your odds of problems just went up to approximately guaranteed.

And a lot of USB AC 1.0 firmware sucks, too. The spec says that the number of samples per frame must be within -0/+1 samples between consecutive frames. The reason for this is that audio drivers have to guess what to do when the aforementioned devices change sample rates. Getting too many samples by a couple of samples per frame (or too few by one or more) usually hints that the device just switched from 44.1 to 48 or vice versa. At this point, the OS has to guess how to handle it, and assumes that the same rate changed. If buggy device firmware causes this to occur when a sample rate change is not happening, then that device basically has to be hard-coded into the driver as a workaround. Unfortunately, this isn't uncommon with cheap silicon.

I've had long conversations with USB audio driver engineers on the subject, and the general consensus is that everything should move to USB AC 2.0 descriptors as soon as possible, and should provide 1.0 descriptors only as a fallback for Windows. USB AC 2.0 just makes life a lot easier. :)

As for USB mics in general, my biggest problem with them is that *most* people will eventually need to do at minimum stereo recording, and in most cases, dual-mono recording (e.g. for acoustic guitar). When they realize that need, if they started out with a USB mic, they end up buying the interface twice. That doesn't apply to everybody, but it's common enough that USB mics set off red flags for me.

Another big problem I have with them is that there's no real room for trying out different mics. Every time you buy a new one, you're buying not just the mic, but also the interface. If both the mic and the interface are of high quality, that cost adds up a lot faster than buying just the mic each time. And if the cost doesn't add up fast, odds are good that corners were cut along the way.... More importantly, you have no way to know whether sound quality problems are caused by the mic or the interface. If one piece of the chain sucks, the whole chain sucks. This makes it hard to upgrade later.

Also, there's no real room for modding. Most of the mics I tend to pick, with few exceptions, are mics that you can then improve (or at least change) by modding. I've never seen a USB mic that wasn't pretty much wall-to-wall surface mount electronics. That doesn't lend itself to modding unless you're good enough to design your own boards, in which case you probably also can afford to buy a traditional interface. :D

Finally, USB (at least 1.0) doesn't provide much of a power budget. You'll never, for example, see a USB-powered tube mic (or at least not anything based off a 12A*7 tube). Lots of interesting microphone designs just plain aren't possible. And you'll probably never see a ribbon mic, either, because you'll never get the analog noise floor low enough. So it is pretty limiting in a lot of ways.

That said, if you really are interested exclusively in vocal recording, have no interest in modding, have the opportunity to try out a bunch of mics in a store, have a good enough ear to pick the best choice on the first try, and are careful to buy a USB mic that has a built-in headphone jack (without which real-time monitoring isn't likely to work very well), I suppose they're an okay choice. That's not most people, though.
 
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I think the point mshilarious was making is not that USB mics are suitable for everyone--or even most of the enthusiasts on this forum. However, (to use the example given previously) some rap musicians will only ever want one mic to record nothing but their vocals. In that case, a USB mic could be a solution (as I've conceded).

I'm still not fully convinced. I see just too many questions on DAW user forums about driver and monitoring issues to believe that USB mics are always as "simple" as made out to be.

Similarly, even you you make the highest quality of mic with an inbuilt A to D (as it appears Neumann now do) it rarely suits me to work with a single mic and no hardware control of levels etc. However, I freely admit to being a luddite and maybe the future is a good USB mic plugged into a tablet computer. Just not for me!
 
Then you're lucky. USB AC 1.0 sucks. Badly. Among other things, it provides no information about how different timing sources (sample rates) are related. If the input changes sample rates, should the output change? Maybe? Probably? The driver has to guess. This means that if you have a USB AC 1.0 device with a sample rate switch/button instead of it being entirely driven from the software side, your odds of problems just went up to approximately guaranteed.

And a lot of USB AC 1.0 firmware sucks, too. The spec says that the number of samples per frame must be within -0/+1 samples between consecutive frames. The reason for this is that audio drivers have to guess what to do when the aforementioned devices change sample rates. Getting too many samples by a couple of samples per frame (or too few by one or more) usually hints that the device just switched from 44.1 to 48 or vice versa. At this point, the OS has to guess how to handle it, and assumes that the same rate changed. If buggy device firmware causes this to occur when a sample rate change is not happening, then that device basically has to be hard-coded into the driver as a workaround. Unfortunately, this isn't uncommon with cheap silicon.

I understood that the device is supposed to receive sample rate from the host. That's how the TI devices work anyway--if they receive SPDIF input, the datasheet says "any mismatch between SPDIF rate and sample rate is not acceptable" or something like that. So there is room for user error with SPDIF, but seriously with 1.0 you have 44.1 or 48, it shouldn't be that complicated.

I've had long conversations with USB audio driver engineers on the subject, and the general consensus is that everything should move to USB AC 2.0 descriptors as soon as possible, and should provide 1.0 descriptors only as a fallback for Windows. USB AC 2.0 just makes life a lot easier. :)

Absolutely . . . I've been waiting . . . two or three years. Chicken and egg problem unfortunately :(


As for USB mics in general, my biggest problem with them is that *most* people will eventually need to do at minimum stereo recording, and in most cases, dual-mono recording (e.g. for acoustic guitar). When they realize that need, if they started out with a USB mic, they end up buying the interface twice. That doesn't apply to everybody, but it's common enough that USB mics set off red flags for me.

Again, analog input port for a breakout mic. Is not that hard to support since all of the existing hardware in the mic is already stereo. Marginal cost of one connector in exchange for a future sale. That's a no-brainer to me.


Another big problem I have with them is that there's no real room for trying out different mics. Every time you buy a new one, you're buying not just the mic, but also the interface. If both the mic and the interface are of high quality, that cost adds up a lot faster than buying just the mic each time.

Well, that's the limitation as I conceded in the first post. But there are a lot of people who probably *could* be happy with one mic forever, or a stereo pair forever. There is an entire industry devoted to convincing hobbyists otherwise, to their financial detriment. So my one thread is just spitting into the wind.

Also, there's no real room for modding.

C'mon you are obviously not the target audience of a USB mic.

Most of the mics I tend to pick, with few exceptions, are mics that you can then improve (or at least change) by modding. I've never seen a USB mic that wasn't pretty much wall-to-wall surface mount electronics. That doesn't lend itself to modding unless you're good enough to design your own boards, in which case you probably also can afford to buy a traditional interface. :D

Learn to do SMT. A lot of new sexy components are SMT only, and that is going to be the future. Some components don't even come in SOIC anymore--most digital stuff has gone TSSOP or even worse, QFN. TSSOP I can handle . . . but if you can't do SOIC then I'm sorry, you can't solder.

Finally, USB (at least 1.0) doesn't provide much of a power budget. You'll never, for example, see a USB-powered tube mic (or at least not anything based off a 12A*7 tube).

Let's not confuse AC 1.0 with the USB standard--you have 2.5W for a high-power device. There is a wide enough selection of tubes you can run on that, get creative. Are the 12A_7s really the end-all be-all of mic tubes? I think not.

5840 would work. Maybe I'll even do one with my still-secret submini I am working with--I'll let the cat out of the bag once I secure my lifetime supply :D This stuff is getting hard to find :(

A related problem is the codec enumerating as low-power, which means you will technically be noncompliant if you draw more than 100mA . . . which I am good with ;)

And you'll probably never see a ribbon mic, either, because you'll never get the analog noise floor low enough. So it is pretty limiting in a lot of ways.

Not at all! You aren't burdened by a requirement that the transformer have a low-impedance output, so you use something like the Lundahl 1:110 which if I did the math right has output noise of -126dBV and should yield output sensitivity around -50dBV/Pa or more. That is certainly easily within grasp of an achievable noise floor for an analog stage in front of a codec. Add 40dB gain you're over the ADC noise floor.

That said, if you really are interested exclusively in vocal recording, have no interest in modding, have the opportunity to try out a bunch of mics in a store, have a good enough ear to pick the best choice on the first try, and are careful to buy a USB mic that has a built-in headphone jack (without which real-time monitoring isn't likely to work very well), I suppose they're an okay choice. That's not most people, though.

a) is a lot of people
b) is the vast majority of people
c) some people . . . but really, this is less important than we like to think it is
d) they all should have that feature


I mean it ain't me pushing for this, it's the market. Read the freakin' threads, man, a *large* number of people want this; it's up to the manufacturers to solve the relatively minor technical issues. And when they do--which will be soon--the stock advice on this board will need to change. The "interface era" of digital recording is coming to its close.
 
I mean it ain't me pushing for this, it's the market. Read the freakin' threads, man, a *large* number of people want this; it's up to the manufacturers to solve the relatively minor technical issues. And when they do--which will be soon--the stock advice on this board will need to change. The "interface era" of digital recording is coming to its close.

I was with you for a lot of your post but I think your last paragraph goes way too far.

For a start, I think the demand you mention is mainly from those who either don't understand the limitations or who are putting a cheap price ahead of flexibility and expandability. I think they've also been conned just a bit to think that a USB mic will be a plug and play device as simple to use as a mouse or similar. As soon as they get into things and, for example, want more monitoring than plugging some earbuds into the Realtek socket on their laptop--or use two mics to record voice and their guitar at the same time--they will very rapidly find that the separate interface is the smart and cost effective way to go.

There's another thread running just now about how much people have spent on gear. The attached poll indicates that the single-basic-mic brigade are a definite minority on this forum.

As per previous posts, I've modified my normal advice from "USB mics are a bad idea" to "USB mics might work for you but consider the drawbacks and what you might need in the future". I think this is the fair compromise. For some people, USB mics might work--but they'll never be the universal solution for everyone and interfaces, mixers and XLRs have a long life ahead of them.
 
You know I agree with that and I've put a lot of thought into what a new standard should look like. The reality is there are a *lot* of compatibility problems with the current analog setup, it's just that it's a doesn't work well problem rather than a doesn't work at all problem, but given the average hobbyists' low level of electronics knowledge, they fail to understand and diagnose the problems. Expert users have grown accustomed to a system that seems to need a lot of caveats and bandages.

So, I eventually came up with all converters supplying P12, all mics accepting P12-P48 and outputing a standard -30dBV/Pa. Converters need have a pad switch and not much else, maybe a +20dB gain switch for backwards compatibility. They can standardize their inputs to 0dBFS = 0dBV, which is pretty close to what most of the chips natively are. Output can be the same, further gain can be shifted to the power amps when required. Preamps per se don't need to exist anymore for most people, they have been moved into the microphones.

If mics were very clever they'd accept USB on an XLR-3 (I'm working on that) or be analog otherwise, the way AES/analog mics can work. Or they could go crazy and do all three.

Best of all, there would be a real standards organization that allows certification of compliant gear.
 
Believe it or not, somebody actually did a study and the better location would be top of the forehead (slightly below the hairline and just off centre). It seems mics located here give the most natural tone and require the least EQ. Who cares if you'd have to drill into the skull...sound quality is everything!

(Seriously, somebody doing theatre sound at uni actually did a thesis on this, not so much for implantation but just for the sort of mini mics we use on drama and musicals.)
 
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