Micing Heavy Guitar Tone -

B

BBad199

New member
I guess my question is "how do you sound untra mid scooped and make it sound good in a mix?"

I've several amps, but as of now my "studio amp" is a a engl powerball. I've a couple vtb-1 pres and a motu 896hd that I use. Current mics in the collection include:

sm57s
2 md421
2 4033s
2 akg 300b with omni and cardiod capsules
and a mess of cheap dynamics

I have the ability to crank the amp, but I'm stuck in the same room as it so feedback is a bitch. I like the idea of DIing guitar and reamping, but I don't want to loose the feel that not knowing what your playing will sound like.

Figure the book settings for ultra scoop metal with less bass and gain through an LP classic and a 4x12 cab.

The problem I have is it is too brittle and the tone of the cab doesn't transfer evenly the way things actually sound...


1. I've never really experimented with condensers cause I always thought that they sounded too distant instead of up front and punchy in the mix.

2. I've never recorded analog to tape, is the digital medium too grainy for high gain guitar?

3. I've never experimented with high quality pres. I have the VTB-1s, a usb duo, a 1010, and the 896hd. All which yeild similar results.


Thanks in advance!!!
Jon
 
You're recording gear is fine, and should do the job. You just have to experiment with the amp and the settings. No easy way around it, unfortunately, but you can start by backing the gain off a bit and working the treble / bass controls (also move the mic a little so it's not pointed directly at the cone) so it isn't so brittle-sounding.

You might also want to address the whole "ultra-scooped" philosophy you seem to be hooked on right now. When you scoop the mids and crank the gain too high ... then that's pretty much what you're left with; a thin and brittle tone.
 
And that is the problem...I don't want to make a guitar sound good solo...I want it to sound good in the mix, yet still be heavy (the mix and arrangement assumming quality). Honestly, I've been messing with different rooms and mic placement on the same sound for about 1 year now...I've put more hours than you would believe trying more mic combos than you could shake a stick at. When I think I have it , I realize I don't. And then its back to square one.

I suppose the only fix is playing though a rig I know is set up right so I can compare it to what I'm doing. Its almost like I don't have a goal to shoot for other than listening to my favorite recordings and trying to find a part where only the guitar is playing so I can run it through a spectrum analyzer...and that's just a bad way to do things. I trust my ears...
 
If you've been going at this for some time now, experimenting with every possible combo and still not getting what you want ...

... then I think it might be time for something more drastic.

I think the Eng amps have 6L6 power tubes. You might try modifying it to EL-34. Or just a different brand of 6L6? Or try another amp altogether. I know that's a really tough call, but it just doesn't sound like it's getting you the recorded tone that you're seeking. Maybe it sounds good to you in solo but not in a mix ... or more than likely it sounds good to you in the room, but not so hot on a recording.

It happens.

Honestly, I've been messing with different rooms and mic placement on the same sound for about 1 year now...I've put more hours than you would believe trying more mic combos than you could shake a stick at.
Click to expand...

It isn't so much about the mic / room combos as it is what's coming out of the amp. You see ... amps record differently than they sound to you in a room. No where have you mentioned the amount of time you've spent playing with the dials on the amp. The signle most common problems, I see, for instance, are:

* Too much gain - not enough master volume.

* Presnece knobs are the devil. Anywhere past zero is too much.

* Smiley face scoop curves. Try a little more mid than you think you want.

This isn't mic related stuff. This is amp related stuff. You need to dial in a tone that records well, and translates to your mixes well. Whatever it takes for you to do that, do it. This stuff ain't easy, and it takes as much skill and creativity as it does to learn how to play guitar well.
 
Indeed, mess with your amp more. Try this:
1) First dial in the tone you like, without thinking about how it's gonna record.
2) Now forget how it sounds, grab the treble knob and turn it down about 20% from where it was.
3) Now grab the mid knob and turn it up to little under halfway (assuming it's set to 0). If you already have some mids dialed in, turn it up a little more.
4) Sounds like shit now? Don't worry. Grab your mics).
5) Now slap ALL your mics on the amp (pick a speaker). I don't know how many tracks you can record at once but make sure you use at least an SM57 and an MD421. Just put them in different position. Like, one straight in front of the speaker, one more to the side angled slightly inwards. One back a meter or so etc. I'd try the 421 in the middle and the 57 a little more to the side first.
6) Rock on! Track a few bars and throw your guitar to the side. Now solo each track, one by one, and pick the ones you like best.
7) If the mic you like best sounds too brittle, pick the next track that is too dark sounding by itself, and mix the too (start at 50/50 and mess with it).
8) Time to align the phase of the mics. Zoom in till you can see the waveform of every track, and line them up. Each waveform will like slightly different but you should be able to pick a point where they look fairly the same (the first attack of the first chord is usually pretty clear).
9) Still nowhere near what you want? Unmute all your tracks and listen. Pan some too.
10) If you still got nothing, buy a violin and sell your guitar. DON:T EVEN THINK ABOUT EQING!

Good luck :)
 
Certain ribbon mirophones can capture an amps sound far better than any dynamic IMO.

This is not to say that you cant get the job done witht the correct amp and eq settings, because you can.

But again, a ribbon and a badass tube pre.
 
Have you tried recording with overemphasized mids and scooping them out when you mix? This will allow you to capture frequencies around the range that are normally cut when working with a single parametric knob at the amp level, bringing out more of the natural tone of the instrument.
 
sweet studio masked man, i jelous

but i can't think the solution is in a perticular mic, we've never even heard the amp.
 
put the 57 421 and 4033 next to each other right in front of the amp mabe an inch back
condensers are awsome on amps
 
Cyrokk said:
Have you tried recording with overemphasized mids and scooping them out when you mix? This will allow you to capture frequencies around the range that are normally cut when working with a single parametric knob at the amp level, bringing out more of the natural tone of the instrument.
Click to expand...


Thats a cool concept!
Ill have to try that today.
 
The very best possible EQ for an electric guitar is going to be the knobs on the amp.

Whatever onboard or plugin you're using will be a compromise.
 
how many guitar tracks are you layering?

I'll generally use 4 tracks for light to medium guitar effect, 6-8 for a medium guitar, and 8-12 for a really heavy guitar sound. I learned this from some of the best in the business first hand and have always done it that way.

H2H
 
giraffe said:
...but i can't think the solution is in a perticular mic, we've never even heard the amp.
Click to expand...
maybe, but the 421 and 57 make a good combo and are well established for heavy guitar

if scooped is what you want, use the 421... not the 57... or use both and mix

I think you want scooped and thick... track a left and right channel and double track those with different guitars or AMP EQ settings.

post a clip Jon...

-kp-
 
for your concerns about reamping:
use a y-splitter, send one signal via DI to your motu and the other signal into your amp. the impedance is high enough going into the DI and motu that it should not affect the signal to the amp. still mic up the amp and record both feeds (direct and mic'ed). this way you get you clean, reampable signal through the DI but you also get the mic'ed signal. the reamped signal will have all the nuances of playing with an amp like feedback because there is still the interaction between amp and guitar. now you have a clean signal that you can send out of one of the busses on the motu and reamp your track. at least now you can try near infinite mic'ing possibilities without having to retrack.

now your amp settings. i wouldn't recomend scooping the mids quite as much as you are. and also, back off the gain just a little bit. but if you have the signal reamped then you can fool around with it as much as you want.
 
chessrock said:
The very best possible EQ for an electric guitar is going to be the knobs on the amp.

Whatever onboard or plugin you're using will be a compromise.
Click to expand...


chess has hit the nail on the head.

i will also add that in addition to the best eq for gtr being the knobs on the head itself, the next best eq for gtr is mic placement. resort to a plug in or eq on the mic pre last,if at all.

and if you are using 2 mics on the cab the level of one fader in relation to the other is also eq.
 
Great advice all, I appreciate it.


I'm having some impedance problems with reamping, but incase I figure it out, I do have a DI splitter with a balanced out and a 1/4 unbalanced. Great solution to creating some feel to the DI signal that I never really thought about.


What is the best way to use a condenser on a guitar cab without alot of room noise? cardiod patern 4033 --

My thinking is the louder the amp, the better the tubes will sound anyway, the less the signal to noise ratio will be, the less room noise will become a problem and the more "present" the recording will be.
 
Hard2Hear said:
how many guitar tracks are you layering?

I'll generally use 4 tracks for light to medium guitar effect, 6-8 for a medium guitar, and 8-12 for a really heavy guitar sound. I learned this from some of the best in the business first hand and have always done it that way.

H2H
Click to expand...

would that layering just increase the volume of the guitar? would it be the same if you just turned down everything else and upped the master? just curious, i'm gonna try it out right now b/c it sounds like a good plan.
 
No, it doesn't change the volume if mixed well. It adds detail that is simply not present in one single guitar track. Think of drawing a straight line on a paper. If you draw that line 10 times at the same place, you will still have a straight line, but it will be alot fuller and more animated than that single line you drew the first time because we just can't help but draw minor differences in each stroke.
 
Halion said:
No, it doesn't change the volume if mixed well. It adds detail that is simply not present in one single guitar track. Think of drawing a straight line on a paper. If you draw that line 10 times at the same place, you will still have a straight line, but it will be alot fuller and more animated than that single line you drew the first time because we just can't help but draw minor differences in each stroke.
Click to expand...

That's a really good analogy. I've never thought of it visually like that, but I'm going to have to remember that one. I likes.
 
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