Isolated Splitter Snake question

RawDepth

RawDepth

New member
I’ve come to a fork in the road and need advice.

I am preparing to buy a 24 or 36 channel “splitter” snake for remote recording. I am not sure whether I need the isolating transformers or not. I don’t want to spend nearly $1000 for one without transformers, and then rudely learn that I should have gotten an iso snake instead.

I have read that two or three mixing consoles can play tug-o-war with voltage loads. Though, some folks have told me that they are not necessary because modern equipment gets along much better than it used to.

Can someone with experience give me guidance as to actually how important or necessary are they?

Application: I don’t think I’ll be recording any platinum albums in the near future. I will mostly be making live demos for bar bands. The noise level will probably be high with buzzing amps, bleeding mics, screaming drunks, etc. So, most of my equipment is mid range. I will use a live mixer for a real time 2-mix and a DAW with outboard pres for multitrack recording.

I’ll drop this in two forums because it’s an oddball question.

Thanks in advance.
 
I've done some of this stuff and pretty much try to make myself independent from the club and band I'm working with. I've learned not to expect anything. I've even gone to pro clubs, talked to the engineer, only to discover he doesn't even know what a splitter snake is, much less how the AC is wired in house. "there's always been this buzz in the system, i can't figure it out."

One of the things you can run into is ground loops. They come from gear being connected to different AC circuits. The difference between ground potential in the different circuits creates a hum. Without ground lifts or xformers the only choice you have is to unground your gear. Unsafe!

I guess you gotta make the call. Xformers are going to probly at least double the cost of the snake. Here's one I found on ebay.

Whirlwind 24ch. split snake

This one only has a 40ft. trunk. I used to have one with 100ft, so I could use it as a foh snake if I wanted, and also rent it out. It took awhile for it to pay for itself, but it is a pro piece of gear.


It's a big upgrade in terms of dollars, but for me the peace of mind is worth it.
 
From what I've gathered on this question, the replies ranged from 'We've done hard splits for years, it works fine..' to 'Your ass is hanging out when you do run into trouble.' :D
The way to hedge your bet (with no transformers):
Make sure you're on the same local electrical source as the house, and make all the hard stage connections (DI's) isolated.
The way I've avoided the whole snake issue with the little bit of live I do, is I supply a rack of nice pre's and give the soundboard a line level split. It's a system with several compromises though; my level changes effect FOH -that's a bigie. We need to have that bit of communication worked out.

On another note; Do you do live remotes without having a redundant (back-up)recorder?
Wayne
 
most splitter snakes in pro live audio are passive. (no transformers). with larger touring rigs you may come across some transformer splits.

As long as the snake is well sheilded, and you have good clean power with a common ground you should have no problems with at least 3 passive splits (FOH, Monitor, Recording). you could probably even get away with 4. you may find you loose some level from the mics, but it's not a problem with modern mics and mixers. Be certain phantom power is coming from only one mixer, and make sure the techs on the show know which one it is.

A few summers ago I was monitor tech on a festival tour, and we split passive 3 ways for recording regularly with not one problem.
 
Cave Dweller said:
As long as the snake is well sheilded, and you have good clean power with a common ground you should have no problems with at least 3 passive splits (FOH, Monitor, Recording). you could probably even get away with 4. you may find you loose some level from the mics, but it's not a problem with modern mics and mixers. Be certain phantom power is coming from only one mixer, and make sure the techs on the show know which one it is.

A few summers ago I was monitor tech on a festival tour, and we split passive 3 ways for recording regularly with not one problem.
Click to expand...

A festival tour is one thing, but this guy is going into clubs to record bar bands. Asking for modern mixers, clean power, a common ground, and a tech who knows anything is alot . Too much for me, unless I can get into the club waaaay in advance. And especially if someone is paying me to provide them with a good clean recording. It's my rep, and I can't blame anything on the club.
 
RawDepth said:
I am not sure whether I need the isolating transformers or not.
Click to expand...
Yes, you want your splitter box to have isolation transformers... I use the Whirlwind SB series splitter boxes.
 
You guys are right. I think I would rather be isolated from the mayhem as much as possible. Thanks for your advice. I have decided to spring for the transformers. In fact, Horizon makes a 4 channel rack mount box called MS-4. http://www.horizonmusic.com/Catalog/Default.asp?FILE=Hrzn_Cat_pg17.htm Maybe I will just get 6 of those babies. It looks a lot cheaper than a full blown splitter snake.

The idea of using transformers sounds as though it will be worth it in the long run. The odds are already against me as it is, and trying to make a clean recording in an atrocious environment like that will prove to be challenging. I don’t need AC hum and volume drops further plaguing my tracks.

MIXSIT, about your earlier question on redundant recording. Yes, I will use two recording machines but they will not record the same thing.

Here is what I have...

Everything (24 channels) will come into my truck through the (soon to be) isolated snake and into my outboard preamps. They have inserts for dynamics and A/D converters for the 24 track computer DAW (machine 1). Furthermore, I get 24 analog preamp outputs to feed my mix consol (also in the truck). From there, a stereo analog mix, complete with EQ and effects, will run into a rack mounted CD recorder (machine 2), such as the Alesis ML9600 or Tascam CDRW750. All told, I will record 24 dry tracks to be edited another day and I will be able to burn a few premixed CD’s for the band to take home that night.

I have almost all of my gear now but I am still shopping for the CD recorder and snake. I will mostly use whatever mics the house soundman puts up. I will add a few of my own such as overheads and maybe better quality drum mics. Local soundmen have a bad habit of using cheap stuff but I can deal with some of it.

I am a skilled soundman of many years. I have a knack for getting a real sweet sounding live mix. I think most bands will be happy with it unless of course THEY completely suck to begin with. There is not much that any soundman can do with crappy sounding instruments and off key vocals.

I know. I must be crazy for even wanting to try this. But hey, no guts no glory, right!

Is that what you meant by redundant? What would you do different to improve upon the system?

Gordon
 
Last edited:
RawDepth said:
Is that what you meant by redundant?
Click to expand...

I was thinking about back up for the multi track. That can be a tough call.

There is not much that any soundman can do with crappy sounding instruments and off key vocals.
Click to expand...
The other wild card out of our control is the quality of sound on stage. So often it seems there's a monitor system being pushed to the edge of ringing, worse when the whole stage goes alive down in the low-mids where it's more likely to not get fixed. :D
Wayne
 
mixsit said:
I was thinking about back up for the multi track. That can be a tough call.
Click to expand...

I really put forth a lot of effort to build a computer that is both stable and reliable. I didn’t want it crashing in the heat of battle. I used all high end components. Maybe later, once I earn a few bucks, I can add a portable HD recorder for backup, like The Alesis HD24 http://www.alesis.com/products/hd24/index.html or the Fostex D2424LV. http://www.fostex.com/index.php?file=products/digital/d2424lv I can easily split the digital lightpipes for that. Once I have the DAW tracks safely backed up at home, then I can erase the harddrives of all recorders and go again for next weekend.

For now though, it will have to wait because I’m just a poor working sap with an ordinary day job. I pretty much blew my wad just to get this far. I’m hoping some of this stuff will soon pay for itself.

There are still lots of things on my wish list. AAAAHHHHH!!!!, will the madness ever end?

Gordon
 
The splitter box should be connected immediately after the mics and before the monitor mixer so the recording mixer is connected between the mics and monitor mixer... and remember that p-pwr won't pass through the transformers, so use the non-transformer side for the monitor mixer and if any condensor mics are used let the monitor mixer power them.
 
mixsit said:
I was thinking about back up for the multi track. That can be a tough call.


The other wild card out of our control is the quality of sound on stage. So often it seems there's a monitor system being pushed to the edge of ringing, worse when the whole stage goes alive down in the low-mids where it's more likely to not get fixed. :D
Wayne
Click to expand...

Monitor systems aren't supposed to ring? :D That's such a pain in the ass- all that precaution and the monitors feed back onto tape. Sigh.
BTW great advice on the hook-up of the snake.

Wow- a truck and everything! You are really going for it. I saw a thread around here with pictures and diagrams of a mobile rig- I'll see if I can find it. I've never been able to get to that point.
 
Make sure you get the biggest best UPS power backup system you can. The Best computer in the world won't make a difference if the power blows and your preamps shut off. I would even go so far as prepulling a second, unused AC line from a whole different circuit so that if power does go out and your UPS is screaming like mad at you, you can just switch the AC lines and then go troubleshoot the original one. Feedback from monitors does suck. Loss of power shutting down your machines and dumping everything sucks even worse. I also think its a VERY good idea to get a back up multitrack machine.

Just so you know, DON'T buy the Fostex. If power drops while you are recording on the Fostex you WILL lose THE WHOLE recording. You will still have previous material, but the Fostex takes about 1 to 2 seconds to finalize when you hit stop. If power drops the machine won't do that. I have been through miles of tech support and everyone I have called and who has looked at it said the data is just gone. To think, I thought I was safe with my recorder plugged into power at FOH. The Power at this club went out about 10 seconds before I was going to stop rolling. The band had left stage already, but had left the guitars leaning against their amps feeding back. I wanted to make sure I caught that, especially since it was a 4 camera shoot. Lesson learned:(
 
Thats great if you do, but that was never mentioned abpve. Also, gennie or not, a power back up is certainly something worth considering. I have had generators go down too.
 
Thanks for all the help and advice guys but, there is just one thing still bothering me.

After I spend nearly $2000 to isolate myself against buzzing, what about (non-shielded) guitar stomp pedals or (non-isolated) stage monitors that may already have lots of buzzing in them? Isn’t that still going to make its way to tape?

I shouldn’t have to solve everyone else’s problems too, should I? ...Or, is it not that big of a worry?
 
I wouldn't worry too much. If the monitors are that noisy the band would probly complain about them onstage, never mind on tape. Should be an issue for the club, but sometimes I find it easier to deal with myself. If it's an issue on vocal tracks between songs, you can address that during mixdown, and use an expander to cut some of the noise (it's like a light gate). If you place your mics right the monitor should be pointing towards the point of maximum rejection anyway.

As far as the band gear, not much you can do, unless the hum comes from the A/C. They hopefully know. Usually when they hear it on tape they spend some time on their own taking care of noise issues. I've recorded for a couple bands and had them say "Ouch! We sound like that?"
 
RawDepth said:
I shouldn’t have to solve everyone else’s problems too, should I? ...Or, is it not that big of a worry?
Click to expand...
Yes, if that is what your being to paid to do (job duties) then by all means fix it... if not, screw it.
 
live recording

These systems sound pretty complicated. Don't the clubs let you place your own independent mics on the stage? That way you could use a cheap, transformerless stage box and send a snake feed to a bank of battery powered preamps, which then feed a standalone multitrack recorder (I use the Alesis HD24).

I continue to get good results with a rack of 16 discrete, unbalanced hand-made mic preamps running on 2 9v batteries. They're clean enough for most purposes (short signal path and battery power), are practically noiseless in a live setting. and haven't coughed in the 3 years I've been using them. They take drums, anything, so SPL capability isn't an issue. For longer runs, the unbalanced issue of RF noise may be a problem for some people, but I've yet to experience this myself.

The whole rig is a 6U case, containing the Alesis and the preamp rack. The Alesis is hard-wired to a multipin snake connector on the rear of the case, so it's just a matter of attaching the snake, running it out to the stage, mic'ing up and readying tracks.

I use individual splitter boxes for vox: the only connection I have with the house engineer.

I prefer this approach, as it takes the stress out of recording a gig, and I can spend more productive time later at home getting a good mix in the comfort of the control room.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top