How to achieve sufficient gain without excess hiss

badassmak

Herbi-Whore
It has been many moons since I posted here, happy to see this forum still around~!

Be forwarned, this post is about accordion micing in live situations.

I have tried a few different setups now, and still can't find a 'thing' that works.

I play in a very loud folk punk outfit and am having trouble keeping up with the volume.

At this point I have discovered the best method to be an SM58 capsule glued inside the box and wired to a 1/4" out which I then use with a rather inexpensive wireless guitar to send the signal to my amp/speaker. I have tried much more expensive omni/condenser mics specifically designed for accordions but have found they feedback like crazy when I try to turn them up to a useable volume. The only problem with the 58 approach is the fact that I have to turn the gain up so high it creates a tremendous amount of 'hiss', and the volume is barely useable with a good chance for feedback...still better than the condensers though! I am also using a Triton Fethead in my setup to help boost the signal but it is still not enough.

So now I have had this thought about installing a second 58 capsule inside the accordion - maybe then I could reduce the gain substantially and retain volume?

Initially I thought to wire the two mics together onto a single circuit but it seems to me this will leave me with the same issue, just better rounding of sound due to mic placement (eg with this I can also get better representation of sound of the entire accordion as opposed to the one mic setup where the notes closest to the mic have more volume). Am i right in thinking this? If so, would I have the ability to somehow sum the circuits into one signal without loss of gain? Does this make sense?

Also - any better suggestions? I guess ideally I might also try any dynamic with a high level of sensitivity, higher than the 58's and see if that would work, but am also having trouble finding out what those actually are.

Many thanks!
 
Lots of folks use the Cloudlifter with SM7s i wonder if that might help. Or even a guitar buffer pedal.
 
How are you using a Triton Fethead that requires phantom power with a wireless electric guitar transmitter? A dynamic mic level output is not up to the level of a guitar pickup, so I think you need a belt-clipped, battery-powered preamp in front of the wireless transmitter. Putting the Fethead on the receiving end (assumed, since it's needing phantom power), isn't working.

There might be a stereo mixer preamp that you could find but two mics will complicate things. I'd try to get by with one. Also, that SM58 usually goes through a transformer. If you tossed that part, it's likely not helping. Maybe buy that cheap Behringer SL-75C look-alike of the SM57. The Behringer is transformer-less, and is going to be a cheaper way to experiment, if you decided to try stereo.
 
It has been many moons since I posted here, happy to see this forum still around~!

I play in a very loud folk punk outfit and am having trouble keeping up with the volume.
Sounds a challenging proposition.
At this point I have discovered the best method to be an SM58 capsule glued inside the box and wired to a 1/4" out which I then use with a rather inexpensive wireless guitar to send the signal to my amp/speaker.

I would have suspected something like this to be one of the best options.

better rounding of sound due to mic placement (eg with this I can also get better representation of sound of the entire accordion as opposed to the one mic setup where the notes closest to the mic have more volume)

I don't know much about accordions. So the sound doesn't come out of a single point source but a variety of places? (Or a row of reeds?) I wonder if you could build some kind of cone setup to funnel all of the sound to a single point for miking?

The instrument itself doesn't resonate with the notes does it? If it did, you could attach a piezo to wherever the resonance happens.
 
A guitar wireless input level is a very poor match to a microphone - you'll be not driving it remotely hard enough and you then have to raise the gain on the receiver. Swap the guitar pack for a pack with mic level - or if it's a Sennheiser or similar, they swap from instrument level to mic level by changing the 3.5mm plug wiring.
 
Great!

I should start by clarifying my chain.

I do not recall tossing any electrical parts from the 58 - it was in pieces when I got it. Here is a picture - there are only two wires headed to the 1/4" jack.12.jpg

From there I am using the ammoon 5.8GHz wireless guitar system. ammoon 5.8G Wireless Guitar System Audio Digital Guitar Transmitter Receiver Built-in Rechargeable Battery 100 Feet Transmission Range: Amazon.ca: Musical Instruments, Stage & Studio

The receiver plugs into the Triton Fethead, which then plugs into the back of an EXM Mobile Yorkville

The EXM Mobile has phantom power built in, and it is working to increase gain - I have tested with and without.

I use this speaker because it doubles as a monitor and a DI for the mains. This way there are no feedback issues from the monitors for the rest of the band (I am not central to the foundation of the band so they don't need to actually hear me except for the quieter bits and then my speaker performs that function).

Gtoboy - I think the cloudlifter and fethead are the same kind of thing, but the fethead is less money and less cables. Never heard of a buffer pedal before, going to look at that but would prefer not to have pedals.

keith.rogers - I have tried to explain in this post how it actually works (phantom power) and it does. I see the problem with using a guitar transmitter now. I think you are right in that I should stick with one mic and not overly complicate it with two (phase issues anyone).

VomitHatSteve - A very challenging situation indeed. I had no idea going in it would be this tremendously complicated! Yes, accordions are rows of reeds. Unfortunately, funneling sound does not seem feasible given the nature of accordion construction. The accordion in question is actually not even full size, yet there are still 116 different reeds (per push or pull of bellows - so actually 232) to sound - I have one accordion here with over 300 (600) reeds so am happily not trying to mic that. I hadn't thought of piezos, the body does resonate, but I wonder if it actually does enough - like a guitar or cello.

rob aylestone - it seems this may be the issue. Going to have to look into testing one out before I buy.
 
How clean are you trying to get your signal? (Besides the noise floor, I mean)

If it's a punk band, you probably could get away with a pretty ugly, over-driven sound. Buffer pedals are - I believe - any of the broad categories of pedal that boost your signal, so a decent distortion pedal could accomplish a lot of what you need.
Or, if you use a guitar amp instead of a PA amp, then you won't need to boost the signal as much before it gets there. Your PA amp expects line or mic level, but you're sending guitar level signal.
 
Speaking from a guitar playing perspective, the 60W Yorkville seems small for the job, especially when you're running several separate signals through it simultaneously.
 
K like I totally disapprove of the entire context of this post (folk punk?!? plus accordian?!?), but whatevs...

Since the reeds are steel, you could at least theoretically transduce them by way of a magnetic pickup. My initial thought was maybe clavinet pickups, but I'm not sure they'll fit. It would probably take quite a few guitar pickups to cover the whole thing, and even that might be tight on that bottom set, but there are these things which are pretty cheap and if you remove the case pretty super thin, and could be wired together in either series or parallel or some combination thereof and then...somehow potted and mounted because they come as just a coil of wire around a magnet not even attached or anything. Course, you could also just get some magnets and wire and roll your own. If you get it right, it could be louder out of the box, quite a bit less prone to feedback, and probably sound quite a bit more like an electric guitar which I think would be punk as fuck.
 
K like I totally disapprove of the entire context of this post (folk punk?!? plus accordian?!?), but whatevs...

Since the reeds are steel, you could at least theoretically transduce them by way of a magnetic pickup. My initial thought was maybe clavinet pickups, but I'm not sure they'll fit. It would probably take quite a few guitar pickups to cover the whole thing, and even that might be tight on that bottom set, but there are these things which are pretty cheap and if you remove the case pretty super thin, and could be wired together in either series or parallel or some combination thereof and then...somehow potted and mounted because they come as just a coil of wire around a magnet not even attached or anything. Course, you could also just get some magnets and wire and roll your own. If you get it right, it could be louder out of the box, quite a bit less prone to feedback, and probably sound quite a bit more like an electric guitar which I think would be punk as fuck.

That... seems needlessly elaborate but also pretty cool.

Hand-winding a pickup kinda sucks tho. I can't imagine that it would be any fun to do one that's a foot long!
 
There are electric accordions.... maybe finding one, or researching how they are amplified would be a good move. I'd try a clip on small condenser with a mini gooseneck like a trumpet/sax mic, run it through a small mixer with phantom power, and then on to whatever amplification you want.
 
I can't imagine that it would be any fun to do one that's a foot long!
Well, you’d probably do better with RWRP pairs, and honestly you only really need to cover the spot directly above each reed. The rest would basically just be a radio antenna. So like a bunch of little ones might do better. I seem to recall somebody using tape heads (pulled out of those aux-to-cassette adapter things) for string sensing on a guitar somewhere, but I’d have to go look that up.

If you wanted to get really stupid, you could look at the way a Wurlitzer EP and some organs work, but you’d have to plug that into a wall and would end up holding a box with dangerously high voltage running through it...

Edit - Ah here you go! Tape head guitar pickups: DIY Hex Pickup Project | GuitarNutz 2
 
If you wanted to get really stupid, you could look at the way a Wurlitzer EP and some organs work, but you’d have to plug that into a wall and would end up holding a box with dangerously high voltage running through it...

That does sound punk as heck
 
[MENTION=45867]VomitHatSteve[/MENTION] - Kinda defeats the whole wireless thing they’ve got going on. ;)

I’m saying that sticking a microphone inside a hollow box, running it into a guitar amp, and trying to get it loud enough to compete with a punk band sounds like a recipe for disaster. Or at least a bunch of feedback, but then that is pretty punk, so what are we even bitching about?

Course, I guess I’m thinking like actual punk where electric guitars are cranked up so loud you can’t hear the drums and you can see somebody’s trying to sing but the PA is either just farting out or feeding back. IDK about this folk punk thing. If it’s all like acoustic guitars and banjos and shit, they probably can’t get that loud before it all goes to shit anyway, so...
 
I'm still concerned about the matching to the guitar pack - they are optimised for a guitar pickup, which is higher output than a 57 - and of course designed for a high impedance load, and your mic is low impedance. You have to make up the gain after the receiver - which brings up the noise and makes the system very prone to any signal path issues.
 
Speaking from a guitar playing perspective, the 60W Yorkville seems small for the job, especially when you're running several separate signals through it simultaneously.

This is correct. However this is the only instance where it is not enough, for almost all the other gigs and things I use it for it is enough. So moving forward this will be used as a monitor only and I am being fed into the mains wherever possible from the out on the Yorkville. Another 10 watts and I'm sure it would be enough.
 
K like I totally disapprove of the entire context of this post (folk punk?!? plus accordian?!?), but whatevs...

Since the reeds are steel, you could at least theoretically transduce them by way of a magnetic pickup. My initial thought was maybe clavinet pickups, but I'm not sure they'll fit. It would probably take quite a few guitar pickups to cover the whole thing, and even that might be tight on that bottom set, but there are these things which are pretty cheap and if you remove the case pretty super thin, and could be wired together in either series or parallel or some combination thereof and then...somehow potted and mounted because they come as just a coil of wire around a magnet not even attached or anything. Course, you could also just get some magnets and wire and roll your own. If you get it right, it could be louder out of the box, quite a bit less prone to feedback, and probably sound quite a bit more like an electric guitar which I think would be punk as fuck.

Ahh the context of taste. Whatevs exactly!

Interesting idea. I suppose if I came across a bunch of those super cheap I would give it a go, but I think I have figured out my issue (see below).
 
There are electric accordions.... maybe finding one, or researching how they are amplified would be a good move. I'd try a clip on small condenser with a mini gooseneck like a trumpet/sax mic, run it through a small mixer with phantom power, and then on to whatever amplification you want.

Depends on the electric. Rolands have no reeds so they are straight midi, and sound great! But are super expensive and the one that I do actually own has the weird issue where the bellow response isn't real (when opening multiple reed chambers aka pressing multiple notes in a real accordion the bellows move a lot more than if you only press one note. Unlike the roland which moves at a static preset rate...so bellows response really throws me off...maybe not the newer rolands but yea...$$$. Other electrics typically use Omni Electrets which feedback like mad a folk punk band volumes)...

I've gone through several bona fida iterations of accordion mics, none of them are meant for accordion madness, only accordion niceness.
 
Well, you’d probably do better with RWRP pairs, and honestly you only really need to cover the spot directly above each reed. The rest would basically just be a radio antenna. So like a bunch of little ones might do better. I seem to recall somebody using tape heads (pulled out of those aux-to-cassette adapter things) for string sensing on a guitar somewhere, but I’d have to go look that up.

If you wanted to get really stupid, you could look at the way a Wurlitzer EP and some organs work, but you’d have to plug that into a wall and would end up holding a box with dangerously high voltage running through it...

Edit - Ah here you go! Tape head guitar pickups: DIY Hex Pickup Project | GuitarNutz 2

Holy smokes. Really cool. Perhaps sometime when I have the time I could delve in there, but very interesting!
 
[MENTION=45867]VomitHatSteve[/MENTION] - Kinda defeats the whole wireless thing they’ve got going on. ;)

I’m saying that sticking a microphone inside a hollow box, running it into a guitar amp, and trying to get it loud enough to compete with a punk band sounds like a recipe for disaster. Or at least a bunch of feedback, but then that is pretty punk, so what are we even bitching about?

Course, I guess I’m thinking like actual punk where electric guitars are cranked up so loud you can’t hear the drums and you can see somebody’s trying to sing but the PA is either just farting out or feeding back. IDK about this folk punk thing. If it’s all like acoustic guitars and banjos and shit, they probably can’t get that loud before it all goes to shit anyway, so...

We are fairly loud. Picture this. Acoustic rhythm guitar/lead singer/newfie party animal. Blazing electric leads with a Hendrixy gypsy jazz players flair. Mega electric bass. A madman on fiddle blazing leads all day long. And it all starts with the drums which are loud as anything rock out there - to which the lead guitar and bass match volume etc etc.

The omni directional electrets I've tried specifically for accordions are almost useless just with the accordion itself - mega feedback. Accordion is just a major challenge in general because it traverses all of the spectrums at the same time while being a treble and bass instrument. Example, I really have to dial back the bass with a full band or it conflicts heavily with the bass. At other times its fighting with the fiddle. Depending on the vocal Ill have to switch between dry and wet tunings. It really is an instrument better off on its own or with a small group, maybe not so loud. However there are a few good examples out there - Korpiklanni (Folk metal?) - Flogging Molly! - The Dreadnoughts are probably the best example of a folk punk band I know.

Polka Never Dies - The Dreadnoughts - Live in Bristol - YouTube

Although we are probably louder than these dudes for sure.
 
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