dynamic vs condenser
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Richard Monroe
Well-known member
I'm not a techno-geek, so I'll pass on discussion of specs. In the real world, dynamics and condensers are like the yin and yang, they both are absolutely necessary. Good dynamics shine on percussion, cabs, brass, and vocals, especially backing vocals. If your dynamic isn't doing it on cab, either the source sucks, the mic sucks, what the mic is plugged into sucks, or the mic is in the wrong place, which sucks. Many fine tracks of electric guitar, maybe even the majority of them, have been tracked using a single dynamic, so that's not the problem. Dynamics are old friends from the stage. You know how to work their proximity, and how to avoid 'plosive's and sibilence by positioning. (sorry, to me dynamics don't go in front of cabs, they're vocal mics.)
Less prone to picking up background noise, less detailed, dynamics airbrush you. With lower output, they want a pre with a lot of clean gain.
If a dynamic is an audience, a condenser is a music critic, and a room critic. If it likes the room and the source, it can capture detail and nuances that are lost on most dynamics, even most ribbon mics. If you want to capture something that sounds really, really good, a condenser will do it, when used properly. The reverse is also true. Do not expect forgiveness from a condenser.
Whether you play well or suck, you'll read about it in the morning paper.-Richie
Less prone to picking up background noise, less detailed, dynamics airbrush you. With lower output, they want a pre with a lot of clean gain.
If a dynamic is an audience, a condenser is a music critic, and a room critic. If it likes the room and the source, it can capture detail and nuances that are lost on most dynamics, even most ribbon mics. If you want to capture something that sounds really, really good, a condenser will do it, when used properly. The reverse is also true. Do not expect forgiveness from a condenser.
Whether you play well or suck, you'll read about it in the morning paper.-Richie
Flatpicker
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Well, you ask for it! (a deep breath and...)guitarist said:
Condenser mics differ from dynamics in that they capture the sound via a “capacitor” that changes its value (capacitance) in proportion to the sound waves vibrating it. To do this, the “capacitor” needs to be electrically energized and its output immediately amplified to “drive” the preamp input. Since the signal from a condenser has been electrically amplified, it can be pretty “hot”.
Think of it like this: Go to your local favorite fast food joint and get a “water” to go and a clear straw. Poke the straw through the lid and seal up the hole around it with putty, play-dough, or something so that it is airtight. Once it’s all sealed up, squeeze the cup and notice the water moving up the straw. Release the cup and notice the water moving back down the straw.
In this analogy, the cup is the capacitor and it capacitates water. In a condenser mic, the capsule is the capacitor and it capacitates voltage (which it gets from the phantom power supply). When the diaphragm (represented above by the outside of the cup) is vibrated via sound waves, the voltage charge on the capsule moves up and down like the water in the straw. This is a very, very tiny change in voltage, but it can be measured with a good Field Effect Transistor (FET). This measurement is then amplified into a good strong signal before being sent down the line to the preamp. Besides supplying a voltage source to the capsule, the phantom power also supplies power to this pre-preamp built into the mic.
Dynamic mics, on the other hand, work like this: Long, long ago, some dead scientist discovered that if he took a piece of wire, wound it into a coil and passed it through the magnetic field of a magnet, current flowed through the wire. Likewise, if the coil was moved in the opposite direction, the current also flowed in the opposite direction. (Remember doing this in grade school science and wondering, “what am I learning this for?”)
Later, another scientist (probably dead too) discovered that if he made a lightweight coil out of very fine wire, attached the coil to a very lightweight membrane, and mounted it so that it moved freely back and forth across a magnet, it would generate currents proportional to the sound waves “felt” by the membrane.
Thus, a dynamic mic captures the sound by moving a coil through a fixed magnetic field in proportion to the sound waves vibrating it (backwards from a speaker). This MECHANICALLY produces a small electrical signal, which is sufficient to drive the preamp input. Trouble is, even though it can “drive” the preamp input, its interaction with the preamp depends on the mic’s output “impedance” (resistance at every frequency) and the preamp’s input “impedance”. This can change all over the place, depending on things like whether the pre’s input is transformer or capacitor coupled, type of transformer used, type of mic, etc, etc.... In addition, since the signal is “mechanically” amplified, it most often is not as “hot” as a condenser’s electrically amplified signal.
What does this mean? Well, to me it means that:
1. The preamp design has more to do with the sound of a dynamic mic than that of a condenser mic.
2. Dynamic mics are generally going to be noisier then condensers because they need more gain due to the weaker signal. Actually, it’s the preamp that’s noisier. The mic itself is actually very quiet.
It is for these reasons that I believe condensers are generally better for use with cheaper mic pres simply because their interaction is going to be more predictable and quieter.
Now, having said all that (whew!), one thing you ask was what are the differences in audio quality & maximum sound levels? Well, I just covered the sound levels, but as far as quality goes the best I can tell is that dynamics come very close in audio quality to condenser mics, DEPENDING on the preamp you’re running them through.
Your next question was “Does it depend on what they're being used for?” I would not only answer “yes”, but also add “...and who’s using them”. I don’t mean to sound like a broken record because this gets repeated on this forum time and time again, (maybe because it’s true?
) but you really have to experiment and decide what’s right for you. Lot’s of people have great success micing amps with dynamics (SM57 comes to mind) and others with ribbons and still others with condensers. Depends on the musician’s pick, the musician’s picking method, guitar, guitar pickups, guitar strings, guitar cord, guitar electronics, (the guitar strap probably doesn’t matter
), guitar amp, speaker cabinet, speakers, room, MIC, mic cable, mic pre, recording medium, song context, other instruments, vocals in the mix, etc, etc. You see, in the BIG picture the mic is but one small part. Now... what do you mean by “it doesn’t seem to handle the guitar amplifier”?
Flatpicker
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I have two pre-school children and they're always leaking milk, juice and cola out of their sippy-cup straws.mari said:
I guess that's where that came from...Richard Monroe
Well-known member
It's an interesting comparison, because Flatpicker obviously has a good grasp of the electronics involved, and most of what I know about mics comes from using them, but in the end, me and Flatpicker end up at the same question.-How come your dynamic isn't cutting it?-Richie
Neil Ogilvie
Still Learning.......
Re: Re: dynamic vs condenser
Micheal Faraday.
Thomas Edison I believe, although many people made this 'discovery' independantly.
A little bit of science history there for everyone.
If Guitarist is interested I did a short dissertation on all microphone types and the physics behind it. PM me and I'll email it to you.
Neil
Micheal Faraday.
Thomas Edison I believe, although many people made this 'discovery' independantly.
A little bit of science history there for everyone.
If Guitarist is interested I did a short dissertation on all microphone types and the physics behind it. PM me and I'll email it to you.
Neil
Flatpicker
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Re: Re: Re: dynamic vs condenser
Attach it to a post here, if it’s not too large. I’m sure several of us would like a copy, including myself.
Neil Ogilvie said:
Attach it to a post here, if it’s not too large. I’m sure several of us would like a copy, including myself.
Flatpicker
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Does the preamp have an input gain control or some type of attenuation switch you could use to lower the signal going into the pre?guitarist said:
Yes it has input gain control but even when its low enough to keep the leds from going red (or low enough so you just barely hear a sound, for that matter) the sound is still overdriven. Not as noticable when the guitar amp is in overdrive, but on a clean channel you get undesirable effects.
There's also a line-in connection besides the mic input, but I havent tried that yet since it's an RCA jack & i dont know if you can put a mic there anyway.
There's also a line-in connection besides the mic input, but I havent tried that yet since it's an RCA jack & i dont know if you can put a mic there anyway.
Flatpicker
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It won't work plugged into the "Line In" jack.guitarist said:
Check everything in your signal chain. You may be sending too hot of a signal from the pre/mixer to the recording unit (computer card or whatever). One way to see if you have a bad mic is swap it out with a good one and see if the problem goes away.
Before I can be of much more help, you need to describe the signal chain (mic, pre, recording method etc...).
I gave up on dynamic mics alog time ago. I can't get anything to sound great. Mine are in storage because I find condensors sound big and detailed. The recorded tracks "sit" in the mix far better. Now, maybe it is because I have never used a great pre-amp with them. I should try them now to see. But, when I was "stupid" many years ago and used only my board's pres, the condensors were 100 times better. I sold my sm57s because they really sounded horrible. Standard, or no, I hate them.
Flatpicker
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acorec,
I tend to agree with your statement about '57s not sounding that great through most cheap pres. If you ever try an SM57 with your VMP, let me know how it sounds.
I tend to agree with your statement about '57s not sounding that great through most cheap pres. If you ever try an SM57 with your VMP, let me know how it sounds.
Flatpicker said:
Dynamics are incredible mics through quality mic preamps. Through budget preamps, they just tend to suck.
Steve
www.mojopie.com
colorsound
New member
I just read the discussion and was so intrigued i had to join the board to get in on this. Wow i had no idea preamps were so important! what would you consider good and bad preamps?
also, i've found my one an only condensor mic to get distortion when i play acoustic guitar and sing simultaneously into it. I think when i first bought it it didn't but it has for a while now. I took it back to the store, got a brand new one with my reciept, and took it home to find it was still just as distorted. it's not the cable either. i can turn the level wayyy down to avoid clipping distortion but then it might as well be a dynamic the level is so low. i've began to think maybe big condensor mics aren't good for this sort of thing, and i need one of those little snake ones (like the oktavia) for a base track of guitar and singing. the big condensor's great for a very soft vocal, alone, but other than that...
my preamp is a dbx minipre (it is single channel and costed about $100), is that a good one?
also, i've found my one an only condensor mic to get distortion when i play acoustic guitar and sing simultaneously into it. I think when i first bought it it didn't but it has for a while now. I took it back to the store, got a brand new one with my reciept, and took it home to find it was still just as distorted. it's not the cable either. i can turn the level wayyy down to avoid clipping distortion but then it might as well be a dynamic the level is so low. i've began to think maybe big condensor mics aren't good for this sort of thing, and i need one of those little snake ones (like the oktavia) for a base track of guitar and singing. the big condensor's great for a very soft vocal, alone, but other than that...
my preamp is a dbx minipre (it is single channel and costed about $100), is that a good one?