Can I successfully record my soprano voice with Focusrite 2i2 3rd generation studio?

D

dariamente

New member
Hi! I am a soprano and I recently purchased Focusrite studio to record arias and art songs that I sing. I record them on Cakewalk. The problem is, I am trying to record in my small apartment and my high notes get distorted. When I turn down the microphone gain, I can’t heat the middle voice but my high notes sound great! But then I try to turn the volume up on DAW and the high notes get distorted again. I tried to sing from different distances and I have the same results over and over again.
1.Is this happening because of the microphone? Should purchase a different one?
2. Can I solve this just by recording at a bigger space?
3. Can I solve this by learning how to mix? (because I have so little idea of using DAW)

Thank you!
 
You need to be more detailed on distortion. The rules from the start of the recording industry haven't changed. You always stop distortion in the chain at the earliest point. So you sing at your loudest required and stop it clipping. If you have things recorded distortions free, that's the main thing. If it them sounds bad, it's probably not the voice but the room, so it's gentle eq normally. However, the distortion you hear could be coming from the speakers or amps. We need to hear the problem. Record something with dynamic range, NO EQ, no compression and let us hear what the mic captured. Then we can advise. You need to get this right first.
 
How close are you to the microphone? If you watch videos of operatic singers, BBC proggs if you can find them, you will actually rarely see a mic in shot and when you do it is often about a mtr in front and below the artist. You will know this of course but classical singers are LOUD! They have to be of course.

Your room is small so you will have to deaden it as much as possible with duvets/blankets in fronr, behind and above you. Then have the mic at least 500mm away and a little below or above the mouth line. This is much further off than you will see pop artists in studios. The mic is also on the sensitive side at* 16mV/Pa and will overload many a budget AI with loud voice close up. IMHO those AI bundles are really aimed at rock/pop wannabees and podders!

Yes, with that setup much of your 'sensitive' stuff will be at low level but no matter. Record at 24 bits(44.1kHz) and make sure you set the gain such that you never hit higher than -8dB fs in the DAW.

Post recording you can use compressors and other tricks to reduce the dynamic range to whatever final destination the work is going to. But...SAVE that initial full range recording, it is after all THE hi fi rendition of the music.

*Sorry for the technicals but you gotta learn some! Please ask if you need further help with the jargon.

Dave.
 
It is not likely that the microphone is the source of the problem. It is more likely that technique is where the problem lies. You have identified part of this, i.e. the big difference between the loud and soft bits of the aria and how to manage this.

What would be useful is for you to describe your set up. Are you singing a capella? Is someone playing piano for you? Are you singing to a rep-recorded backing of some sort?

And heed the advice of others above ^^. Set the recording level for the loudest part of the aria, and give yourself some distance from the mike to ensure you don't record a distorted signal. It's always possible to adjust the quieter bits later.
 
Watch a couple videos on mic technique. You will probably need to move in to the mic on the soft parts, and then project slightly away from the mic on the loudest parts.
 
keith.rogers said:
Watch a couple videos on mic technique. You will probably need to move in to the mic on the soft parts, and then project slightly away from the mic on the loudest parts.
Click to expand...

Wel er, yes Keith, that is the received wisdom but, IMHO no. Opera singers are not 'crooners' they can just stand there and belt it up to the gods or, more often they are moving about, if not about the stage at least the head can swing about depending upon whom they are addressing.

I think the lady has got to capture her performance 'as is' and then deal with the dynamics post tracking?
She is fortunate to be living in the age of phenomenally good, phenomenally cheap digital recording gear. But a few decades ago at good $3000 would be needed and even then tape would make a poor job of it.

Dave.
 
First rule of recording Opera soloists is that microphones need to be just 'there'. They do NOT use microphones in the way non-opera singers do. As has been said, close miking is rare - even when they do those studio albums of opera singers doing popular songs, they need good rooms and distance. If you close mic them, they tend to sound simply dreadful. They follow prescribed musical dynamics in performance venues - they stand still, and their voices do the dynamics. If you stick a condenser in close, then the pads need to be in because they're damn loud. Amateur opera singers are considerably quieter than pro singers - the more they sing, the louder their voices get as they develop. A few can change genre and sing differently, but very few.
 
I get it, but OP is recording "in a small apartment" so I would say if that's the space, then a mic set for the loud voice is probably not that far, maybe a meter, as suggested, so must be gained down. When OP gets quiet, they're not in a concert hall or recording studio, so at that setting, even with room treatment for echo, I'd worry that ambient noise will ruin a pianissimo passage when gained up in post unless the singer compensates in some manner. If nothing else, perhaps changing the angle at which they face the mic (which almost certainly requires some kind of treatment).

A bigger space might help, but only if the [background] noise level is low enough.

P.S. I've been to the opera a few times!
 
I agree Keith, The Space is a problem but we do not know what the ambient noise is at this juncture (and I would suggest opera theatres are not THE quietest of places?).
More of a problem I think will be the just g'damn awfulness of small rooms, especially for music that really demands a huge and wonderful acoustic.

All she can do I think is use absorbent materials to damp down the worst of the room modes then perhaps add just a sniff of reverb later? Any ideas for good 'classical' (and free!) reverb plugs?

Dave.
 
Dampen the room and use the dynamic range properly. Compressed dynamics in opera or classical style music in my humble view never sounds good. I've got exactly this at the moment with vivaldi's Gloria. The quartet plus organ recorded at home have a very limited dynamic range but the choir drop right down in places, but turning down the strings sounds really strange.
 
rob aylestone said:
Dampen the room and use the dynamic range properly. Compressed dynamics in opera or classical style music in my humble view never sounds good. I've got exactly this at the moment with vivaldi's Gloria. The quartet plus organ recorded at home have a very limited dynamic range but the choir drop right down in places, but turning down the strings sounds really strange.
Click to expand...

Indeed, back in the day the 90dB+ dynamic range of classical music had to be 'gain ridden' to fit it onto tape and then vinyl (or FM radio. We shall not speak of MF,AM!). Now that we routinely have a 100dB DR capability (given a quiet enough venue) it would be a monstrous shame NOT to capture the full fat performance.

Of course, the music will need dynamic 'trimming' to fit commercial sources, most folks cannot make use of the 90dB of CD in their homes but at least the original recording should be saved as the best it can be.

For the same reason, posterity, this is one area where 96kHz or higher sample rates are appropriate? You never know what is to come.

Dave.
 
YouTube

This clip gives 'some' useful information. The microphone is well in front of the lady, how far? Hard to judge but I would guess about 1mtr. When she starts to speak the level is pretty low, comparable to the audience 'burble' but once into her operatic stride she is easily competing with that orchestra.

Of course, we cannot know how the balance engineer has managed things but any sound guy or gal will tell you, "if the singer/speaker is feeble on the mic there is not a lot you can do with it on the PA".

To go back to your original question Diariamente, ".....SUCCESSFULLY record my voice..." IMHO? No, not in that room. Could you make a fair representation of what you can do? Yes and that is pretty much all the vast majority of home recordist can achieve.

One thing however is certain, it is not the equipment that is holding you back, it is the space. If you could rent/borrow a nice village hall or church for a day? MaaaaaJIK!

Dave.
 
Hi! Thank you all for the amazingly helpful responses!

When I try to record I am about 1 meter away from the mic and the mic gain is halfway up. When I sing arias with very low notes and high notes at the same time, I can't balance the sound. When I keep the gain as it is I can hear my lower range but high notes get distorted. Distortion starts at the mic input. When I see it turn red, I turn the mic gain down a little but then the lower range is almost mute.

I can also hear that the size of my voice is way smaller when I record at my apartment. I am used o hearing my recordings from my performances in halls so it is a bit demoralizing :D


Daria
 
I recorded something last night to give you an idea of what it sounds like when I record in my apartment.

But I can't post it here. It doesn't allow me because I'm new to the site.

You can find it on my youtube channel (Derya Kayaalp) titled "o cessate di piagarmi home recording"

This is not a high piece so the higher notes were not distorted when I recorded. I was 1 meter away from the mic and the mic gain was halfway up. If you would like to hear what it sounds like when it gets distorted, I can record that too.
 
Very nice Di!

That recording however brings me more questions than answers. Who did it and where?

They certainly knew their business because they not only got the balance between you and piano spot on (imho) but also obtains a very decent piano tone. I will say I am only listening on headphones atmo' (AKG K92) but will audition the piece on my Tannoy 5a monitors in a while. So, issues...

1) Level. If that is an unedited piece then it is way too hot and the recording bod was damned lucky! It hits -2dBfs at times, just a smell away from digital disaster! The usual advice given in these forums is to average -18/-20dB fs. The clip average a bit above that which WOULD be ok but for the fact that this is not your usual 'rockpop' fare but classical with a large dynamic range. As a first take I would have backed off gains to get peaks to an absolute maximum of -8dB fs. Yes, that would push some parts down to -30 or so but THAT is how the music is.

2)The Piano! In your apartment recordings will you have piano backing? If so this both simplifies AND complicates the matter!
Simpler because you now have a background 'noise' and just need your voice a bit above that. Complicated because recording piano is far from trivial.

I hate to say this and I know I shall get 'stick' for it but you might need to buy a mixer.
You need one that has effects on it so that you can kill all the bad sounds in the room with duvets and such but have a reverberation effect (aka 'fx') coming out of the mixer to headphones. It would also be useful if the mixer had a compressor in the main output to limit your 'overs'.

You will not see such a setup suggested at all often in HR and indeed I would not normally do so but you are trying to capture music well beyond that discussed here in terms of dynamic range.

Dave.
 

Attachments

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Right! The procedure you are using where the gain is set for the loudest dynamics, as in no red light is correct. The quiet notes are NOT lost, two things can happen. The noise in your system hides them, and with your interface this is unlikely, or your listening chain is unable to cope with the range. This is more likely. We can easily confirm this with a quick listen. Record the loud, almost going red phrase followed by the pppp phrase with no adjustment of anything and l us hear it. You could have excessive dynamic range because the room is small and it's messing with your hearing,Mir something else, we need to hear.

In the video clip Montserat Caballe is using a Schoeps on extension tubes, quite common for a TV opera recording.
 
Yamaha MG10XU Analog USB Mixer at Gear4music

That ^ looks a likely candidate. Compression on two inputs and effects.

Rob, I know this is not 'the way it is done' but I would aver this is a special case? I do agree that it is technically better to capture the full dynamic range of a performance and then deal with the problems it causes later. It hurts ME to suggest modification when now, after a hundred or so years of striving for a 'perfect' recording medium to suggest cramping its style!

But needs must it seems and in any case the lady really needs some reverb I think!

Dave. (I shall now grab the manual .pdf for that mixer)
 
Hmm, not overly impressed with your scabby two sheets manual Mssrs Yamaha!

Still, the mixer seems to have the facilities I think are needed. Compression on two inputs and 24bit effects, various halls and a 'plate' (find those in BIG studios).

FYI the mixer would feed the line inputs of the Focusrite. (yes, I know it is a USB mixer but a few experiences with others of that ilk have shown me that the signal routing to USB is not what you need in many cases)

Dave.
 
Rather than complicating things with a compressor on a mixer and echo effects, why would it not be better to simply record the vocal straight up and add only as much compression and echo as is needed in the DAW.

Listening to the Youtube video (and Dave's audio extraction) it seems that one of the things that might be missing is the sense of space that you get in a hall compared to a small room. I've use the Samplicity impulse files for reverb plugins, and they seem like they would be very well suited to this type of sound. They have impulse files from a number of different concert halls. It doesn't take much to really fill out the sound and give the illusion that it was recorded in a proper venue.

A bit of compression to bring up the ppp passages can be added, or perhaps it might be a little better to just use a limiter on the fff passages.
 
That is something I considered Rich but she might not know how to set that up and latency might throw her not likely with reverb I grant you but not something an opera singer has to cope with? Not at least stood in the bow of a piano?

The mixer also make the input of any backing music simpler.

Dave.
 
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