Budget Ribbon vs. Budget LDC

BrentDomann

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I need an up-close and personal, intimate, and most importantly warm vocal mic. Bright voice + MXL "large" (20mm) diaphragm condenser=tinny. I know that I can score a 25mm condenser for a reasonable price, but are the low-priced ribbons (which I think would better fit the bill) total shite?
 
If you can afford $25 - $90 dollars more for a new transformer for the cheap ribbon, and can put it in, then it's a contender.

But what's the budget? You can go a lot further for a LDC with $400 than you can with $100, although both those sums are considered cheap [by some people].
 
If you can afford $25 - $90 dollars more for a new transformer for the cheap ribbon, and can put it in, then it's a contender.

But what's the budget? You can go a lot further for a LDC with $400 than you can with $100, although both those sums are considered cheap [by some people].

Good advice. What's your budget? That will be a considering factor in making the decision.
 
Since everybody generally agrees that all the budget ribbons are the same mic on the inside, you might as well get the one that comes in the padded aluminum flight case, inside a padded cordura bag, with xlr cord attached.....

Apex 210. For under $200 bucks you cant beat it.

If you can go $600 get the Beyer ribbon.

But if you must get an LDC, try to avoid the ones made in China.
 
Alright, well, here's the story. I have been recording some demos in my spare bedroom with a friend. The mixes have been pretty good, but I was using a sampler for the drums and inexpensive condensers for the vocals. We got an opportunity to record in a much nicer studio, and I made sure to ask some questions while I was there. Particularly, I asked what could be improved in my demo mix because I always want to make things a little better. The answers were that the drums were a little harsh (which I can't really fix unless I hammer them with EQ because they were from DFH and I didn't record them), and that the vocalist's voice was very bright. In fact, her voice is so bright naturally that the engineer at the fancy-pants place used a vintage (1950s) Neumann M49 and still had to EQ in a couple of db of low-end, and still wasn't happy. With my mics, her voice was like it was resonating through a trash-can lid. I figured it was something about the cumulative effect of a vocal characteristic and similar mic characteristic because the inexpensive condensers I own, while they work for some things, do indeed have an artificially-hyped high end.

So we talked about it, and he considered trying an old RCA ribbon mic on her voice. Ultimately we didn't re-track, and I think he used a U67 or a U87 on the BG vocals, but now I'm hunting for something to improve my home recordings. Her vocals aside, I've never been happy with my own (i.e. me singing) vocals either because they have a lot of high overtones and sound tinny in most of my recordings. So, I am looking for a mic that might warm things up a bit.

The limitations of my mics (an AT2020 and various MXL 900-series mics), if I estimate correctly, are the hyped high-frequencies and the size of the diaphragm, which although claimed to be "large" are not the typical 1" - more like 3/4". Therefore I imagine the mics respond with better transients on high frequencies, and I hope to find a larger and thicker diaphragm mic that will act a little "woolier." The AT is far better than the MXLs, but not where I want it to be.

My search is on for a mic mainly for vocals, maybe for the lower bout or as a room mic for an acoustic guitar, and that's it unless I find some other use in the future. If I go LDC and I like it and it's cheap enough, I may get a second for stereo stuff and Glyn Johns-sort of micing if I happen to like the low end. I will only be buying one ribbon for now regardless of the outcome.

My budget probably is in the $200-$300 range, but there are a few considerations to take into account: first, it would be my first ribbon, and I haven't handled one before - I am wary of hitting the top of my budget for fear of destroying the mic or having an inexperienced singer or musician do it; second, although I have a budget limit, that doesn't mean I don't want to avoid approaching it - if i can get a warm LDC for $69, that's fine...in fact, I'd prefer it not just because of my wallet but because I will be more likely to use it for weird micing techniques in which it might get whacked with a drumstick or might in some other way have a hard day. I'm just doing bedroom recordings, so I'm looking for frequency response characteristics, not necessarily rugged components or a ridiculous noise floor (it only has to last with light use, but shouldn't be the kind of crap that decides one day to pick up radio stations). Additionally, I'd prefer to avoid mailorder, but will use it if necessary. The only local place with both types of mics in is Elderly (not exactly a recording equipment superstore), and they've got a CAD Joe Satriani kit, which has a ribbon mic (a Trion 700 dual ribbon) and a dynamic. The package with the dynamic is $299 versus $279 online for just the ribbon, so for $30 I'll take the extra mic and the chance to buy locally. The LDCs they have in are a CAD GXL2200 ($69), an AT2020 (already have one), and an AT3035 ($199). Another place in town has a few higher-up ATs, but I'm not going to spend more just to get a "better" mic, I'm looking for a specific characteristic ("warm"). I hope that helps you to understand why I'm not shooting for the top of my budget.

I have some more questions, but your responses so far are getting to them so I won't type them out. I'm just providing this info so you have an idea of my needs and my budget (which, as I said, is basically "as low as possible in the search for a certain frequency response, sacrificing things like ruggedness and internal noise to meet my price point").

And thanks for the responses so far.
 
I'd probably spend the extra money and try a Cascade Fat Head or Fat Head II mic with a Lundahl upgrade (either do it yourself or have them put it in). Just my two cents. You'll have less trouble with body resonance and internal reflections than with the larger ribbon mics like the Apex 205 or 210, I suspect.
 
Ribbons are good, but you may be happier with a dynamic like the SM7.
The problem is you will need a preamp with some good clean gain to use it.
 
Since everybody generally agrees that all the budget ribbons are the same mic on the inside...

Close, but not exactly. The info below might also help the original poster make a decision.

There are three basic Chinese ribbon microphone types (long, short or dual short ribbon). The long ribbon (Apex 205, 210, Cascade Vin-Jet) mics have the most extended HF response. The short ribbon (Cascade Fat Head, Nady RSM-3,4,5) mics have a more attenuated top end relative to the long ribbon style. And the dual short ribbon mics have greater sensitivity than the single ribbon types but share the attenuated top of the single short ribbon type.

So if you really want to attenuate the top end (at the mic) of a very bright vocalist, the short ribbon style could be considered. On the other hand, another recordist might want the smooth, sibilance-free top end of a ribbon but have a darker vocalist to record that needs all the top a ribbon can provide. A better choice here would be the long ribbon type with its extended top end.

As a side note, I used the terms short and long ribbon to easily distinguish these two ribbon motor types. The HF response is not related to the ribbon length, but rather to the front-to-back path length around the ribbon. The short ribbon motors use a much wider magnet structure and yoke. This creates a longer front-to-back path length and thus early HF roll-off compared to the long ribbon motor with their narrow magnets and yokes.

Beyond the difference in ribbon motor type, there are execution details that also differentiate inexpensive ribbon mics. These occur in ribbon thickness, ribbon corrugation type and sizing accuracy, ribbon installation accuracy, wire type and routing, presence or absence of acoustical filters and headbasket shape and construction.
 
I've got an Oktava MK-319 that I got for less than $100 that I then sent to Mr. Joly for modification, and if I had a vocalist like the one you described, that's probably the first mic I'd reach for (it is often the first mic I reach for in many other situations, as well).
 
I've got an Oktava MK-319 that I got for less than $100 that I then sent to Mr. Joly for modification, and if I had a vocalist like the one you described, that's probably the first mic I'd reach for (it is often the first mic I reach for in many other situations, as well).

+1 and ditto. I was going to recommend that as well.
 
I'd probably spend the extra money and try a Cascade Fat Head or Fat Head II mic with a Lundahl upgrade (either do it yourself or have them put it in). Just my two cents. You'll have less trouble with body resonance and internal reflections than with the larger ribbon mics like the Apex 205 or 210, I suspect.


I've had all of these mics, and I would agree with this IF you get the transformer upgrade done. Without the upgrade, the Fatheads are almost identical sound to the Apex. In fact, I liked the Apex better because the Fathead was almost too open and too airy sounding, it was almost hard to get a warm low or low mid from it.
 
I've had all of these mics, and I would agree with this IF you get the transformer upgrade done. Without the upgrade, the Fatheads are almost identical sound to the Apex. In fact, I liked the Apex better because the Fathead was almost too open and too airy sounding, it was almost hard to get a warm low or low mid from it.

With the upgrade, they are even more open and airy sounding. The stock transformers are muddy.

IMHO, the main purpose of a ribbon is not to get a warm low or low mid. The purpose is to get an accurate sound that isn't hyped and takes EQ without harshness.
 
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