Best microphone for recording my saxophone

luispa

New member
Hi,
I'm planning to improve my home studio. At this time the weakest point is the microphones quality. I have three entry level condensers, AKG Perception 200, MXL 990 and Tascam LD-74

I recorded a clip with each mic for giving you an idea about how they sound, and how I sound on them.





I need a flat microphone which doesn't emphasize too much a given frequency band. I'll use it mostly for recording samples which can't be equalized because I need to left the sound exactly as it was recorded.

Here are my questions:
- Should I get a new microphone? What do you think about the sound of the mics I already have?
- How much money should I spend to get a noticeable sound quality improvement?
- Should I get a new condenser or should I look for a dynamic microphone? I heard wonderful things about Electrovoice RE32 and Sennheiser MD441 but these are out of my budget.
- Which brand/model would give me a reasonable quality improvement?

Thank you very much in advance.
 
Before you invest in a new mic, how much experimentation have you done with mic placement and aiming? This can make a huge difference with a sax and there's no one right answer--it depends on what sound you're after.

Basically, the closer you mic the sax, the more low frequencies you'll pick up and the darker the sound will be. Backing off will give a brighter sound (but you'll be limited by the acoustics of your room). Similarly, assuming you're 6-12 inches off the bell, aiming down at 45 degrees can be a more aggressive sound while pointing straight ahead at the upper keys can be a bit smoother.

I'll go so far as to say that, while I have favourite mics for the sax, I'm probably more worried about the position than the mic itself--and the style of music I'm after affects where I put the mic.
 
if you want a quality improvement, get a decent preamp first, then a new mic.
I guess my mics are the weakest part of my recording chain. I have a bunch of decent audio interfaces (Alesis IO26, Yamaha GO 46, Mackie Onyx Blackjack, Presonus 22VSL and a couple more). Another weak point is the recording room, I know I have to do something to reduce the natural reverberation.
 
I guess my mics are the weakest part of my recording chain. I have a bunch of decent audio interfaces (Alesis IO26, Yamaha GO 46, Mackie Onyx Blackjack, Presonus 22VSL and a couple more). Another weak point is the recording room, I know I have to do something to reduce the natural reverberation.

Hey hey!
I listened to the clips and I'm not sure I really hear a problem.
Of course I don't know exactly how the source instrument sounds and you do, so tell us more if you can.
Is there something specific you don't like about each of the recordings?


General advice that may or may not be useful.

What's you're monitoring chain like?
The recordings may be fine but you could be hearing misleading representations of them.

You mentioned natural reverb.
If treating the room is an option and you're likely to do it in the long run anyway, then do it first and see if it helps.
If you have monitoring and microphones in an untreated room, it will help!

If it's not an option or you can't do it right now, try a dynamic and get much closer to the instrument with it.
That will, of course, affect the tone of the recording and you may or may not like it, but it'll definitely help to offset the ratio between source and reflections.
It won't do anything for your monitoring though, mentioned earlier.

If you're mic shopping you don't necessarily have to spend big money.
Try looking for a second hand md421. It's a great mic.
While everyone's outbidding each other on 441s and sm7bs you might just snag a bargain. ;)

If that's still too pricey, a good old 58 might surprise you.
 
On Microphone Database | Audio Recording News | RecordingHacks, there was a comparison of ribbon microphones for recording sax. If my mind is not betraying me, they liked the sE Electronics VooDoo VR2 the most. On the negative side, virtually nobody seems to stock this microphone.

Thank you for your reply.

I found this link (alto sax):
Alto Sax Ribbon Mic Test | recording hacks
My choice is different than the writer choice, he says every tested microphone sounds better than the Neumann U87 Ai but for me is a close second just behind the Cathedral Pipes Seville microphone. All the remaining mics sounds more or less horrible, this is mostly noticeable in the first 5 notes (mid-highs are over emphasized for my tastes). The U87 and the Seville sound very similar than my Perception 200 on alto sax.

And this link which I think is the one you mention (tenor sax):
Quest for the Ultimate Live Sax Mic: Ribbon Shootout | recording hacks

From this test I like the Voodoo VR2, The Royer Labs R-122 and the Shure KSM353.
 
I'll go so far as to say that, while I have favourite mics for the sax, I'm probably more worried about the position than the mic itself--and the style of music I'm after affects where I put the mic.

Thank you for your reply. I did a lot of experimentation and I found the best place usually is around 10 inches away the bell horizontally and 10 inches upper the bell. I guess I'm ready to know what's your favorite microphones for recording saxophones.;)
 
I guess my mics are the weakest part of my recording chain. I have a bunch of decent audio interfaces (Alesis IO26, Yamaha GO 46, Mackie Onyx Blackjack, Presonus 22VSL and a couple more). Another weak point is the recording room, I know I have to do something to reduce the natural reverberation.

I had a listen and thought all 3 sounded really good, seriously you might not need a new mic, consider getting a better external preamp first.
 
Hey hey!
I listened to the clips and I'm not sure I really hear a problem.
Of course I don't know exactly how the source instrument sounds and you do, so tell us more if you can.
Is there something specific you don't like about each of the recordings?

First of all, thank you very much for your reply.

Well..., it's a bit hard to explain but I'll try it. I think the clips are not too bad but I guess there's room for improvement. From the 3 microphones the Perception 200 is the one I like the most because is the warmest sounding microphone but the low notes sound a bit softer than they should. On the other hand the LD-74 sounds more accurate in the low register but mid and high notes sound too shrill.

What's you're monitoring chain like?
The recordings may be fine but you could be hearing misleading representations of them.

I'm using my trusty ATM-50 headphones. I'll check the recordings with my KRK monitors, I still didn't do that.

You mentioned natural reverb.
If treating the room is an option and you're likely to do it in the long run anyway, then do it first and see if it helps.
If you have monitoring and microphones in an untreated room, it will help!

I know I should improve the recording room. Maybe a different placing in the room could help to reduce the reverberation.

If it's not an option or you can't do it right now, try a dynamic and get much closer to the instrument with it.
That will, of course, affect the tone of the recording and you may or may not like it, but it'll definitely help to offset the ratio between source and reflections.
It won't do anything for your monitoring though, mentioned earlier.

What about a closer pattern condenser microphone? A Rode NT-5 or a similar alternative?
 
For my less-than-ideal recording room (a wood-floored room in a very old wooden house with high ceiling), a good dynamic microphone can really minimize the reverberation. I like the Heil PR40 and the Electrovoice RE20 as they are both end-address and can be aimed directly at my mouth. I really don't know how this would work out with a sax...it's probably more difficult to keep those in one place. Both require a good preamp.
 
First of all, thank you very much for your reply.

Well..., it's a bit hard to explain but I'll try it. I think the clips are not too bad but I guess there's room for improvement. From the 3 microphones the Perception 200 is the one I like the most because is the warmest sounding microphone but the low notes sound a bit softer than they should. On the other hand the LD-74 sounds more accurate in the low register but mid and high notes sound too shrill.

Do you use eq? Sounds like you're looking for a pretty subtle improvement.
Choosing the right instrument, space and mic is paramount but if you're talking about a db bump here or there I'd try it out.

I'm using my trusty ATM-50 headphones. I'll check the recordings with my KRK monitors, I still didn't do that.

At least that rules out room ambience when monitoring.

I know I should improve the recording room. Maybe a different placing in the room could help to reduce the reverberation.

It could if a: the room is a problem to begin with and b: the second room is better somehow.
(that sounds like a smartass response. It's not meant to.)

What about a closer pattern condenser microphone? A Rode NT-5 or a similar alternative?

I suppose the mic pattern could help, but the idea with a dynamic is that the mic is less sensitive, meaning you can put it much closer to the instrument.
It may be subject to debate or just plain wrong, but I think inverse square law trumps polar patterns when it comes to reducing capture of room ambience.


In summary, though, I'm not completely sure if you're trying to reduce ambience in your recordings or if you're looking for a 'nicer' core tone.
Maybe it's both but can you clarify?

PS: Your recordings and playing sound very nice. :)
 
Thank you for your reply. I did a lot of experimentation and I found the best place usually is around 10 inches away the bell horizontally and 10 inches upper the bell. I guess I'm ready to know what's your favorite microphones for recording saxophones.;)

Ooops...sorry if I was too basic there!

Anyhow, my favourite sax mics are small diaphragm condensers. I quite like the old AKG C451 EB (the original one) but I tend to thing the modern equivalent is a bit over priced so I've moved to a Rode NT5 for the most part. It's got a nice smooth sound, no over-exaggerated highs and does a good job on both smooth, quiet styles and the louder more raucous stuff. In a pinch and for less money, the sE1A also does a very nice job though not quite in the same league.
 
I know lots of people like the MD421 on sax but I find the frequency response curve that greatly emphasises about 2K makes the instrument sound harsh to me...but I suppose it depends on how you want it to sound.
 
I know lots of people like the MD421 on sax but I find the frequency response curve that greatly emphasises about 2K makes the instrument sound harsh to me...but I suppose it depends on how you want it to sound.

There are, of course, different flavour of 421 out there.
If memory serves 421 II has the freq bump?
 
I know lots of people like the MD421 on sax but I find the frequency response curve that greatly emphasises about 2K makes the instrument sound harsh to me...but I suppose it depends on how you want it to sound.

Of course the position of the mic has a lot to do with the sound, for example don't point it into the bell of the sax. I have had very good results with the humble SM57.

If you want as smooth sax sound, use a ribbon mic. If you want an open sounding sax, use a LDC out front of the player (good room required). There are many ways to get a good sax sound depending on what sax sound you are after.

And after saying all that, heres a photo of a brass session I did where we wanted a Soul type brass section sound with a hard hit, Baritone has a AKG C4000B pointing just above the bell, and the Alto has a AT3525 pointing at the body of the sax.

Link to finished recording

Alan.

true-love-2.jpg
 
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luispa said:
I need a flat microphone which doesn't emphasize too much a given frequency band. I'll use it mostly for recording samples which can't be equalized because I need to left the sound exactly as it was recorded.

Out of curiosity, why no EQ?


luispa said:
Should I get a new microphone?

I absolutely love getting new microphones so I'm giong to go out on a limb here and say yes.


luispa said:
What do you think about the sound of the mics I already have?

The playing sounds pretty good. This will buy you more bacon than what microphone was used every single time without fail.


A soloed instrument recorded on an entry level condenser might not sound bad immediately in and of itself, which I think is the case here. Trying to mix the sound with other instruments could be a lot more telling. Problems can occur in 3 areas: bass, midrange and high frequencies. The trademark of entry level condensers, especially side address models seems to be an agressive peak in the 8 to 10 kHz range that can sound fatiguing over time. The phase response of most of these mics is terrible as well, which erases a lot of the midrange detail and "3-D" depth to the sound. Pencil mics can be an improvement because the headbasket design offers more natural off axis response.


luispa said:
How much money should I spend to get a noticeable sound quality improvement?

Only you can answer that. Many of the budget friendly options might be more of a move sideways than up, but there's plenty of options. If you can save up for something you might be interested in that is likely to be a keeper, it could save you money in the long run over buying more cheap condensers. If you're looking at something expensive, it's a good idea to have a return policy figured out or try to rent the mic you're interested in to compare it to your other mics before you pull the trigger.

luispa said:
- Should I get a new condenser or should I look for a dynamic microphone? I heard wonderful things about Electrovoice RE32 and Sennheiser MD441 but these are out of my budget.
- Which brand/model would give me a reasonable quality improvement?


A top quality moving coil dynamic will sound much better on just about anything than many condenser mics at the same price point. They're versatile. Most of them are under 500 bucks new. And they're very good on wind instruments. Also very solid and durable. Used resale value is good too, so it could make for a better investment over time. They all have a different character, but the thing they have in common is good sound. Electrovoice RE20, Beyerdynamic M88 and M201, Sennheiser 441 and Shure SM7 are all considered at the top of the moving coil spectrum. Not uncommon at all to see a few of these in the same locker as a bunch of expensive, classic condenser mics.

Used mics are another option, especially if you want to try some dynamic mics without spending too much. I got an old EV N/D 757 for 50 bucks in a pawn shop. Sounds way different than an SM57. More bottom, more top and pretty decent overall for 50 bucks. I'm curious about some of the other N/D mics but haven't used them. They cost significantly less than an RE20, which still isn't ridiculous really. SM57 for that matter will certainly do something different than what you have and might be closer to your liking. Less size and depth than the other ones but still very useable. More midrange. If you haven't tried a dynamic yet, there's a few good ones that aren't as expensive you might like. Could be really handy for live use too.



Good luck in your search.
 
Out of curiosity, why no EQ?

I need to keep the signal untouched because these clips should show how the reed sounds without any kind of artifacts. If I were to record a brass section or a solo over a funk/rock band I'd don't care about all this, there's nothing a good EQ can't solve.

The remaining paragraphs are highly valuable for me, thank you very much.
 
Thank you again for all your replies! From your replies and the replies I got from other two similar forums (homerecording.com and saxontheweb.net). I made the following conclusions:
- Before to buy a new microphone I should do something to improve the recording room acoustical properties if I want to make my recordings with a condenser microphone, or to buy something like this: sE Electronics Reflexion Filter PRO Portable Vocal Booth | Sweetwater.com
- I should make exhaustive tests changing the distance to the microphone and the orientation. I'm afraid I don't tested this enough.
- It has no sense to buy a bunch of microphones and see which one is better for what I need. It's easier (and cheaper) to get a lent dynamic microphone and a lent pen style condenser (like a NT-5 or Perception 170). Keeping this in mind I also get an Audio Technica Pro 25 (a large diaphragm dynamic microphone aimed to kick drums) and after a bit experimentation I found it sounds fuller than the other three condensers. Considering the AT Pro 25 was a budget microphone the result was more than OK. Probably a better dynamic microphone would do it better, models which come to mind are EV-468, AKG D5 or D7, Audix I-5, any experience with these microphones or others than the usual SM57/58?
- As somebody suggested me here or in a different forum, I'll mod the MXL 990 and/or the LD-74. I heard a lot of successful histories about moded microphones. Mod kits use to sell for less than $10 on eBay, too cheap to not try it, and even a K-47 capsule is a bit over $100. I think it's not a good idea to spend more than $200 in a C-214 without being sure this is what I need, probably this kind of condenser mics is a but choice for what I want to do.

For those who are interested in this subject I want to share these useful links:
The Quest for the Ultimate Live Sax Microphone | recording hacks
Quest for the Ultimate Live Sax Mic: Condenser Shootout | recording hacks
Quest for the Ultimate Live Sax Mic: Ribbon Shootout | recording hacks
Saxophone Microphone Review and Audio Shootout
http://www.neffmusic.com/blog/2014/09/saxophone-microphone-review-and-audio-shootout-part-2/
http://thediligentmusician.blogspot.com.ar/2015/04/alto-mouthpiece-roundup-review.html
http://recordinghacks.com/2014/07/16/alto-sax-ribbon-mic-test/

I'll try to post a recording with the Pro 25. I'll keep this thread alive with updates about my progress, Thank you all again for your patience and for sharing your wisdom.
 
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