Vintage Synth Sounds: Genesis, ELP, YES, Moodies...HELP ME!!!
- Thread starter Travers77
- Start date
supertramp1979
New member
Travers77 said:
stuck to their roots?? LoooooooL. I adore the entire span on the 70s; maybe you'll come around for the late 70s sometime.
The whole point of analog synthesis is many and all parameters can be changed at any given time. A lot of those late 70s sounds you dislike so much are actually early instruments. Rick right used his string synths and minimoogs up to the late 70s, as did wakeman and many others.
Anyway, as an analog synth owner, you should at least understand the principal of a sawtooth VCO. I wouldnt recommend you just jumping in and paying overly-bloated prices for a minimoog just because Yes used one. These instruments tend to recquire care and TLC to get them up to playing speed, unless they are REALLY overpriced (which is usually an indicator of servicing fees). Typically old synthesizers need electrolytic capacitors replaced and bushings and felts replaced, and expect to purchase a volt meter and tuning procedures along with schematics unless you want to pay 150 dollars just to have a tech tune it and callibrate it. Seems like you need to do more personal investigating and saving if you want to pay for all of this. On one hand; analogs are the best sounding machines. On another, they can be hard to FULLY understand, and there many things you have to logistically plan out to get those sounds you adore so much. Your very general in your description of what "sound" you want. First its synth, then mellotron! Well if you aim to buy a synth that sounds like a mellotron, your best estimate is to go with a string synth like Solina, or crumars. Keep in mind the minimoog is monophonic, so you'll only be able to hit one note at a time.
Mellotrons go for 4000-5000 now I think. Not to mention the tapes....moodies had a tech on board to change tapes if they wanted different sounds. And you only have 7 seconds per note you can play before the tapes rewind. If you were really interested, Id say go with an optigon or orchestron type machine. If you were REALLY interested, Id say track a Birotron down. Ive collected keyboards throuout the years, such as tube organs, Fender rhodes, clavinets, analog string organs, analog synths, Fm synths, digital keys, wurlitzer, and a some other odds and pumping ends. By far the most maintained and sensitive instruments are the analog synthesizers. Expect drifting. Heres the cheap simple answer;
Buy an ARP AXXE
In today's world there isn't much need to buy a 'Tron or other tape machine. Just use a sample.
Break it down to cost:
Real Mellotron: 5000 bucks
Mellotron Sample CD: 30 bucks
Gmedia M-Tron: 129 bucks
In the end I bet nobody could tell the real 'Tron versus the Gmedia or samples in a mix.
There's always the Moog Voyager. Packs most of the sound of a Mini into a MIDI'd, modern package with memories to boot. Fairly pricey though....
Studio Electronics SE-1's are about 98% of a Minimoog in a 3U rack under MIDI control for about 800 bucks.
Minimoogs are a fairly easy fix and don't have weird IC's like the latter 80's polyphonic analogs. A used Minimoog is always a safe play because tons of techs are familiar and the parts are fairly cheap.
On the other hand, an ARP 2600 is a classic machine that *dusts* a Mini for versatility. It is also a 3 VCO machine.
If you want super authentic modular sounds look into companies like Modcan or MOTM. If you desire that modular weirdness look into Wiard.
Honestly, a *LOT* of 70's sounds can be handled by samplers. EP's, Clavi's, Solina String Machines and the like are competently handled by a good sampler and samples.
IMHO analog synth samples generally suck because you lose anything cool like oscillator sync, S/H LFO madness and so forth. I'd rather go with an Arturia 2600V than a Roland loaded up with ARP samples....
For analog sounds an Arp 2600 and Minimoog cover pretty much 90% of the territory you'd need for the 70's. Add some other samples of 'Trons and the like and you will have it all.
TIP: Kurzweil K2000's are old, good and fairly cheap synth/samplers that read most sample formats. If you need to trigger samples live this is the way I'd go. Heck, they still sound better than that Korg Triton nonsense peddled now.
Break it down to cost:
Real Mellotron: 5000 bucks
Mellotron Sample CD: 30 bucks
Gmedia M-Tron: 129 bucks
In the end I bet nobody could tell the real 'Tron versus the Gmedia or samples in a mix.
There's always the Moog Voyager. Packs most of the sound of a Mini into a MIDI'd, modern package with memories to boot. Fairly pricey though....
Studio Electronics SE-1's are about 98% of a Minimoog in a 3U rack under MIDI control for about 800 bucks.
Minimoogs are a fairly easy fix and don't have weird IC's like the latter 80's polyphonic analogs. A used Minimoog is always a safe play because tons of techs are familiar and the parts are fairly cheap.
On the other hand, an ARP 2600 is a classic machine that *dusts* a Mini for versatility. It is also a 3 VCO machine.
If you want super authentic modular sounds look into companies like Modcan or MOTM. If you desire that modular weirdness look into Wiard.
Honestly, a *LOT* of 70's sounds can be handled by samplers. EP's, Clavi's, Solina String Machines and the like are competently handled by a good sampler and samples.
IMHO analog synth samples generally suck because you lose anything cool like oscillator sync, S/H LFO madness and so forth. I'd rather go with an Arturia 2600V than a Roland loaded up with ARP samples....
For analog sounds an Arp 2600 and Minimoog cover pretty much 90% of the territory you'd need for the 70's. Add some other samples of 'Trons and the like and you will have it all.
TIP: Kurzweil K2000's are old, good and fairly cheap synth/samplers that read most sample formats. If you need to trigger samples live this is the way I'd go. Heck, they still sound better than that Korg Triton nonsense peddled now.
And Humidity changes are a bitch!!! Take it from a long time analog lover/owner, unless you are absolutely prepared to commit to a lot of preventative maintainance, go digital. But if you plan on committing to analog, like a car buff commits to waxing his '57 Bel-Air every weekend, than it can't be beat. And if the Mini-Moog can't get your heart pumping, it means your dead.supertramp1979 said:
Since you're playing live and not in a studio, it wouldn't be wise to start out with a load of vintage analog synths. Or even one for that matter. Trying to keep it a vintage analog synth in good playing condition is a pain -- even for someone with a lot of analog experience.
If you don't believe me, check out the Analog Heaven mailing list. Almost 50% of the posts seem to be people getting or giving help for maintenance and repair issues on vintage synths.
A good sounding replacement for the Mini can take a couple of routes:
First, for keyboard, there's an Alesis Ion. It's digital, but it mimicks a lot of the old 70's synths (Moog, Arp, Oberheim) very well and is used by a lot of people to sub for a mini. On top of that its not that expensive, there's a ton of pre-made patches for it, there's a boat load of help available for it on the net and it's a great starter machine. YOu can start simple and get pretty insane with all the modulation routings and other goodies under the hood.
Another alternative if you want to remain pure to the analog realm is the Studio Electronics SE-1(x). It's a rack machine but 2nd hand they are affordable.
Another rack -- and if it's genuine Moog you're after, there's always the Voyager rack, called the Rack Mount Edition (or RME).
My point is, that unless you've like got an insane amount of money to burn, start cheap and work your way up.
An Ion and a Rompler (someone mentioned the XP-30. Good choice with the vintage sounds), will do just wonderful to get you started. Then, after your out or your Mom's garage and are out giging you'll be in a better position to know for yourself what you want in your keyboard rig.
And there's nothing wrong with starting in your Mom's garage. I did, and I'm sure 99% of everyone else here did too!
-bruce
If you don't believe me, check out the Analog Heaven mailing list. Almost 50% of the posts seem to be people getting or giving help for maintenance and repair issues on vintage synths.
A good sounding replacement for the Mini can take a couple of routes:
First, for keyboard, there's an Alesis Ion. It's digital, but it mimicks a lot of the old 70's synths (Moog, Arp, Oberheim) very well and is used by a lot of people to sub for a mini. On top of that its not that expensive, there's a ton of pre-made patches for it, there's a boat load of help available for it on the net and it's a great starter machine. YOu can start simple and get pretty insane with all the modulation routings and other goodies under the hood.
Another alternative if you want to remain pure to the analog realm is the Studio Electronics SE-1(x). It's a rack machine but 2nd hand they are affordable.
Another rack -- and if it's genuine Moog you're after, there's always the Voyager rack, called the Rack Mount Edition (or RME).
My point is, that unless you've like got an insane amount of money to burn, start cheap and work your way up.
An Ion and a Rompler (someone mentioned the XP-30. Good choice with the vintage sounds), will do just wonderful to get you started. Then, after your out or your Mom's garage and are out giging you'll be in a better position to know for yourself what you want in your keyboard rig.
And there's nothing wrong with starting in your Mom's garage. I did, and I'm sure 99% of everyone else here did too!
-bruce
Aright, i appreciate all opf this help, and i am determined to help you understand my position now!! supertramp especially, check this out, hear me out:
im 18, ive been playing piano since i was 7 years old and i know the damn thing like the back of my hand. Its like my brother. Everyone in my town knows me for playing piano, and ive been asked to play gigs with tons of bands...simply put, im pretty good, and i absolutely adore the instrument.
So...Ive always given my credit for loving piano to: my grandfather, and early progressive rock and roll. I always tell people "this music will change your life" refering to early YES, genesis, moody blues, ELP, and tons more. The music is the PEAK of music, and i play my piano inspired by so many great bands and songs of the time.
So, me and my brother play, every day...and i play on my nice some thousand dollar korg electric piano in the basement (heavy keys, nothing else). We make great songs, and i fool around with my friends little effects on his piano at home which is brand new. One of those 500+ effects pianos with plastic keys, you know, and i fly around on it like nothing. Pulling off tony banks esque lines down the thing on some "choir" or "violin" preset, and it sounds cool! But then i thought, wow, imagine an AUTHENTIC classic 70's synth piano just like the guys back then.
So thats what im looking for...something i can play, that these guys used, i see pinder on it in my live DVD, i see tony banks with 2 of em surrounding him on my DVDs, so hey, why not me??? for a couple thousand or so, ill save up! Thats what im looking for...if i have learned correctly, its a pain in the ass and not worth it...so should i go with one of these emulators or something?
But, i need keys, lots of keys, i dont want to be typing my music...i need a keyboard for this! thats the whole point! Im not a synth fiend or anything, i just want to play music and have it sound cool...anything cool from the 70's, the hammond organ with the leslie! anything with keys that pinder, wakemen, or banks used!
Thanks you so much guys, thats my scoop!
im 18, ive been playing piano since i was 7 years old and i know the damn thing like the back of my hand. Its like my brother. Everyone in my town knows me for playing piano, and ive been asked to play gigs with tons of bands...simply put, im pretty good, and i absolutely adore the instrument.
So...Ive always given my credit for loving piano to: my grandfather, and early progressive rock and roll. I always tell people "this music will change your life" refering to early YES, genesis, moody blues, ELP, and tons more. The music is the PEAK of music, and i play my piano inspired by so many great bands and songs of the time.
So, me and my brother play, every day...and i play on my nice some thousand dollar korg electric piano in the basement (heavy keys, nothing else). We make great songs, and i fool around with my friends little effects on his piano at home which is brand new. One of those 500+ effects pianos with plastic keys, you know, and i fly around on it like nothing. Pulling off tony banks esque lines down the thing on some "choir" or "violin" preset, and it sounds cool! But then i thought, wow, imagine an AUTHENTIC classic 70's synth piano just like the guys back then.
So thats what im looking for...something i can play, that these guys used, i see pinder on it in my live DVD, i see tony banks with 2 of em surrounding him on my DVDs, so hey, why not me??? for a couple thousand or so, ill save up! Thats what im looking for...if i have learned correctly, its a pain in the ass and not worth it...so should i go with one of these emulators or something?
But, i need keys, lots of keys, i dont want to be typing my music...i need a keyboard for this! thats the whole point! Im not a synth fiend or anything, i just want to play music and have it sound cool...anything cool from the 70's, the hammond organ with the leslie! anything with keys that pinder, wakemen, or banks used!
Thanks you so much guys, thats my scoop!
a new or old minimoog voyager, which model? is this what im really looking for, does this have the old sounds?
Travers, you really need to quit wasting time and starting saving up for the Alesis Andromeda. The Andromeda is the absolute coolest keyboard ever (I'm gonna recieve flack for this I know, oh Waldorf Q+ is at the top of my list too). It's Self-Tuning, has like 70-something knobs, hundreds of buttons, AWESOME filters. It has everything an analog buff wants and needs (Give or take). This is the big brother the Alesis Ion only wish it could be (But the Ion is still a good virtual, but again the Q+ holds title of best VA IMHO). I haven't had the luxury of playing the Voyager yet, but if it lives up to it's namesake, it should suit you well. But seriously consider trying out the Andromeda before you shell out 3 grand for anything else.
Check it out:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Andromeda/
Check it out:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Andromeda/
supertramp1979
New member
Since you seem serious about what THEY used, then I will tell you no more; go analog. Don't bother with an emulator. It's not even about the sound anymore.
People need to feel things. It's natural. You want to touch knobs just as you want to feel a dog when you pet it. I'm pretty sure your a musician who relies on an incredible amount of "feel", which leads me to believe any of these emulators aren't what you're really looking for. Sure they make emulators that have knobs & modules (Korg Ms20 emulator) but they are far and few between, and even at that rate, can still cost just as much as your typical Arp Odyssey street price after everything is said and done.
First of all, don't underestimate the versatility of a typical Arp Odyssey or Arp Arpe Axxe synthesizer. Forget about the minimoog. That's a lot of money and one more oscillator you have to worry about. Go with a mono or a duo synthesizer and see if you like it. Even if you dont you can always sell a classic synthesizer in a short amount of time. Here is a quick story;
in the classifieds there was an Arp Arp AXXE for $150. I don't know where you live, but axxe's go for relatively cheap. I purchased the synthesizer expecting it to be naff, but to my surprise thing absolutely screamed. It does have a very "older" (as old as early 70s) sound because it's still 1976 and it still uses 100% discrete components. The filter is wonderful, and modulation possibilities are quite impressive for the price. Generally put, it's a half of an Arp Arpssey. The thing has at least has 22 sliders and a few switches. It's the real deal and think, you can actually feel the thing unlike most emulators.
By the way, don't waste your time on Virtual Analogs either; they are digital. On really high pitched filter sweeps you can hear the intervallic nature of the potentiometers. It is not "linear" like analog. Analog seems to win in this regard which I think is pretty important
If your still insistent on a 1970 minimoog, be prepared to save for a while (considering the price keeps rising and rising). But to bide your time while saving, you can still scrounge together a measly $150-$250 to pay for a cheap monophonic synthesizer. As far as maintenance is concerned, I have had very few problems in reality. The drifting of notes seems to come and go, but can usually be erradicated with basic tuning procedures. You'll find that even synthesizers which still have their original capacitors can still remain loyal and predictable after 30 years. Don't be intimidated. Just do your reading and learn as much as you want about analog subtractive synthesis. Its a cool thing!
People need to feel things. It's natural. You want to touch knobs just as you want to feel a dog when you pet it. I'm pretty sure your a musician who relies on an incredible amount of "feel", which leads me to believe any of these emulators aren't what you're really looking for. Sure they make emulators that have knobs & modules (Korg Ms20 emulator) but they are far and few between, and even at that rate, can still cost just as much as your typical Arp Odyssey street price after everything is said and done.
First of all, don't underestimate the versatility of a typical Arp Odyssey or Arp Arpe Axxe synthesizer. Forget about the minimoog. That's a lot of money and one more oscillator you have to worry about. Go with a mono or a duo synthesizer and see if you like it. Even if you dont you can always sell a classic synthesizer in a short amount of time. Here is a quick story;
in the classifieds there was an Arp Arp AXXE for $150. I don't know where you live, but axxe's go for relatively cheap. I purchased the synthesizer expecting it to be naff, but to my surprise thing absolutely screamed. It does have a very "older" (as old as early 70s) sound because it's still 1976 and it still uses 100% discrete components. The filter is wonderful, and modulation possibilities are quite impressive for the price. Generally put, it's a half of an Arp Arpssey. The thing has at least has 22 sliders and a few switches. It's the real deal and think, you can actually feel the thing unlike most emulators.
By the way, don't waste your time on Virtual Analogs either; they are digital. On really high pitched filter sweeps you can hear the intervallic nature of the potentiometers. It is not "linear" like analog. Analog seems to win in this regard which I think is pretty important
If your still insistent on a 1970 minimoog, be prepared to save for a while (considering the price keeps rising and rising). But to bide your time while saving, you can still scrounge together a measly $150-$250 to pay for a cheap monophonic synthesizer. As far as maintenance is concerned, I have had very few problems in reality. The drifting of notes seems to come and go, but can usually be erradicated with basic tuning procedures. You'll find that even synthesizers which still have their original capacitors can still remain loyal and predictable after 30 years. Don't be intimidated. Just do your reading and learn as much as you want about analog subtractive synthesis. Its a cool thing!
i am all about feel, you hit the nail on the head...but im all about the feel of piano, and that sound, and everything! i want to relive that time almost...i love it, i was born too late! Id take a vintage muscle car that gets 8 miles to the gallon over any beautiful, nice car made in 2005! im 18! i just wna have fun and this is the perfect time to do it!
should i buy this!! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29552&item=7328052838&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
let me know man, thanks!
should i buy this!! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29552&item=7328052838&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
let me know man, thanks!
jgourd
New member
The axe isn't a very versitile machine. It was clearly an entry level synth at best. An Oddessy would be better.
Re The Fest: http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=156202
Re The Fest: http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=156202
supertramp1979
New member
jgourd said:
The axxe is quite a versitile physically speaking, though Travers I wouldn't suggest you buy that particular Arp Axxe. First of all, its the second version meaning it was introduced in 1977 or 1978. You'll want the mid 70s version like mine which has wooden ends. Of course it lacks the modulating abilities of the Odyssey, but they still have the same basic pricipals, and has a lot of attitude. But that is pricesly the reason they sell for 150-250. I stand firm on my pricing so I wouldnt suggest you lay out 450 for an axxe. Ebay prices are tough. Buy local and used. Also, arp oddys sell for 700-1000 now on ebay, so I wouldnt reccomend that. I would reccomend the octave cat (which is very similar to the oddysey). I paid 300 for my octave cat, which I personally think is more moody sounding than the arp. MY octave cat was made in 1976 actually, and can sound very old. compare that 300 to a 1000 odyssey. Not worth it. And I do feel the cat is better, having a more well designed first oscillator and metal sturdy sliders as opposed to the cheap plastic arp sliders.
The Studio Electronics SE 1x is the SHIT! designed with Bob Moog and is faithful and sounds as good as a real Minimoog....This is not an overstatment.
As far as Keyboards... A Nord Electro will have all the sounds you are looking for in the vinateg area.
As far as Keyboards... A Nord Electro will have all the sounds you are looking for in the vinateg area.
aright thanks, im gana try an octave CAT, here is a completed auction....is this the one i want? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29552&item=7325482078&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
thanks! have any good places to buy it? nothng on ebay right now
thanks! have any good places to buy it? nothng on ebay right now
I have always like the sound of whatever is being used on a couple of the Steve Miller Band's commercial hit songs of the 70's - I'm not particularly a big Steve Miller fan but I love the sound of some of those intros and outros on such AOR staples as Fly Like an Eagle and Jet Airliner. They have a sort of mellow, "whooshing" sound with neat little bleeps here and there, and it sounds like the player is able to hit a "bleep" and then twirl a knob and the bleep starts to oscillate faster or slower...
So did I do a good job of describing that sound? It would be almost impossible for anyone my age (I'm 41) to not have heard Fly Like an Eagle or Jet airliner at least 10,000 times, so I don't have to work too hard in describing it. But whatever is making those cool sounds is my all-time favorite and I would love to just be able to sit there and twirl the knobs on one of them, whatever it is.
BTW - I am a guitar player and not a keyboard player, but whenever I have sat down at a keyboard I find that my guitar experience enables me to be at least serviceable on the keys - once I even played keys for a friend's band for an entire night and it was pretty much the first time that I had ever played anything with keys for longer than 30 seconds or so, and nobody ever complained or even noticed that I didn't have a clue about what I was doing. (The same thing happened to Al Kooper on "Like A Rolling Stone" and in fact he was credited with introducing the keyboard as a major factor in rock music because of his performance on that song, but in reality he didn't even know what he was doing - he just happened to be in the studio and someone asked him to play along even though he told them that he was not a keyboard player.). I love that story!!
So did I do a good job of describing that sound? It would be almost impossible for anyone my age (I'm 41) to not have heard Fly Like an Eagle or Jet airliner at least 10,000 times, so I don't have to work too hard in describing it. But whatever is making those cool sounds is my all-time favorite and I would love to just be able to sit there and twirl the knobs on one of them, whatever it is.
BTW - I am a guitar player and not a keyboard player, but whenever I have sat down at a keyboard I find that my guitar experience enables me to be at least serviceable on the keys - once I even played keys for a friend's band for an entire night and it was pretty much the first time that I had ever played anything with keys for longer than 30 seconds or so, and nobody ever complained or even noticed that I didn't have a clue about what I was doing. (The same thing happened to Al Kooper on "Like A Rolling Stone" and in fact he was credited with introducing the keyboard as a major factor in rock music because of his performance on that song, but in reality he didn't even know what he was doing - he just happened to be in the studio and someone asked him to play along even though he told them that he was not a keyboard player.). I love that story!!
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