Midi controller keyboard

mcmac74

Active member
Hi

I'm looking for suggestions for a midi keyboard that can plug into my PCs USB port . I'll be using Reaper as my DAW. It needs to be compact so a 32 key board perfect. I'm new to midi so hard to say exactly what I'm looking for capability wise...as a starting point...velocity sensitive, a good range of keyboard and bass guitar synths along with the ability to sustain notes. I'd prefer the unit is preloaded with lots of effects rather than having to download VSTs to it, although I'd be happy to do that in time .. ease of use ticks a box too.

The budget is £100 and I dont mind buying second hand...ebay seems to have a wide range of new and second hand

Cheers
Mark
 
Most people are moving away from synths to master keyboards that just drive your system, and all the sounds come from the computer. VSTi technology is now so solid and HUGE that using real synths is a total pain. You are locked into a range of sounds that you use over and over. I've got loads of modules and synths I bought over the years and I don't use any of them, because you play them, then edit, then the computer plays the edited stuff while the synth produces the sound that you then have to connect to your interface to record the audio to do the mix - THEN - you always find a note wrong and have to go back to the midi file, then re-record the audio. My favourite synths and modules are now VSTi instruments in the computer so they just work! Working with a hardware synth is a compromise and a historic way to work now - especially as music changes so rapidly, so that favourite bass synth sound is soon so old!
 
Most people are moving away from synths to master keyboards that just drive your system, and all the sounds come from the computer. VSTi technology is now so solid and HUGE that using real synths is a total pain. You are locked into a range of sounds that you use over and over. I've got loads of modules and synths I bought over the years and I don't use any of them, because you play them, then edit, then the computer plays the edited stuff while the synth produces the sound that you then have to connect to your interface to record the audio to do the mix - THEN - you always find a note wrong and have to go back to the midi file, then re-record the audio. My favourite synths and modules are now VSTi instruments in the computer so they just work! Working with a hardware synth is a compromise and a historic way to work now - especially as music changes so rapidly, so that favourite bass synth sound is soon so old!

It's a keyboard controller I'm looking for rather than just a keyboard. I write all my synth parts by playing along to the track...as far as I understand midi (without the use of a virtual keyboard ) I just dont get how I'd be able to create / write parts without a physical keyboard to experiment with. I can get that it's no problem if you're really proficient at music theory, have a good ear and can read music, but I'd just be guessing what notes will sound good as I programme into sequence.

Mark
 
Essentially there are two types of midi keyboards: synths and controllers.

Synths are keyboards that have their own sound generating facilities, controllers have no on-board sounds, but are used as a midi input device, and require either computer-based VSTIs or external sound modules.

From your description, it is really a synth you are looking for, rather than a controller.

However, as Rob notes, that may not be the best option for you, given the workflows involved.

There are three broad processes:

A Synth Audio

1 Get a sound you like on the synth.
2 Record the synth's audio
3 Make a mistake
4 go back to 2 and repeat until satisfied.
5 Come back to it a month later to redo, and try to remember what patch you used,

B Synth MIDI
1 Get a sound you like on the synth
2 Record the synth's midi
3 Playback synth's midi through the synth
4 Correct any mistakes by editing the midi
5 Record the synth's audio
6 Come back to it a month later to redo, and try to remember what patch you used,

C Midi VSTi
1 Load a VST onto a track and get a sound you like
2 Record the midi
3 Playback midi
4 Correct any mistakes by editing the midi
5 Come back to it a month later and the VST remembers what patch you used.
 
Essentially there are two types of midi keyboards: synths and controllers.

Synths are keyboards that have their own sound generating facilities, controllers have no on-board sounds, but are used as a midi input device, and require either computer-based VSTIs or external sound modules.

From your description, it is really a synth you are looking for, rather than a controller.

However, as Rob notes, that may not be the best option for you, given the workflows involved.

There are three broad processes:

A Synth Audio

1 Get a sound you like on the synth.
2 Record the synth's audio
3 Make a mistake
4 go back to 2 and repeat until satisfied.
5 Come back to it a month later to redo, and try to remember what patch you used,

B Synth MIDI
1 Get a sound you like on the synth
2 Record the synth's midi
3 Playback synth's midi through the synth
4 Correct any mistakes by editing the midi
5 Record the synth's audio
6 Come back to it a month later to redo, and try to remember what patch you used,

C Midi VSTi
1 Load a VST onto a track and get a sound you like
2 Record the midi
3 Playback midi
4 Correct any mistakes by editing the midi
5 Come back to it a month later and the VST remembers what patch you used.

Thanks for the explanation ?
 
I think most of us have done all three - and the third option is by far the best. It got so bad that when using the second option for years, I started to name the track the patch number - so instead of 'Korg' I'd call the track 'org c31fader2half' so I could load the song and then go to the synth and set the right patch. In fairness, I could I suppose have done this with MIDI from the file, but the Kong always seemed a bit resistant to that. GM sounds on Kong and Roland seemed to be solid, but tweaked patches always gave men grief. Doing everything in the computer has been a godsend!
 
Essentially there are two types of midi keyboards: synths and controllers.

Synths are keyboards that have their own sound generating facilities, controllers have no on-board sounds, but are used as a midi input device, and require either computer-based VSTIs or external sound modules.

From your description, it is really a synth you are looking for, rather than a controller.

However, as Rob notes, that may not be the best option for you, given the workflows involved.

There are three broad processes:

A Synth Audio

1 Get a sound you like on the synth.
2 Record the synth's audio
3 Make a mistake
4 go back to 2 and repeat until satisfied.
5 Come back to it a month later to redo, and try to remember what patch you used,

B Synth MIDI
1 Get a sound you like on the synth
2 Record the synth's midi
3 Playback synth's midi through the synth
4 Correct any mistakes by editing the midi
5 Record the synth's audio
6 Come back to it a month later to redo, and try to remember what patch you used,

C Midi VSTi
1 Load a VST onto a track and get a sound you like
2 Record the midi
3 Playback midi
4 Correct any mistakes by editing the midi
5 Come back to it a month later and the VST remembers what patch you used.

I think most of us have done all three - and the third option is by far the best. It got so bad that when using the second option for years, I started to name the track the patch number - so instead of 'Korg' I'd call the track 'org c31fader2half' so I could load the song and then go to the synth and set the right patch. In fairness, I could I suppose have done this with MIDI from the file, but the Kong always seemed a bit resistant to that. GM sounds on Kong and Roland seemed to be solid, but tweaked patches always gave men grief. Doing everything in the computer has been a godsend!

I was doing some reading on a few recommended midi controller keyboards and a couple seemed to come loaded with their own VST'S. Whilst I'm happy to experiment with VST'S and download a few into reaper, the ability to add a VST in the controller also appeals...just wondering how this would then translate to the track in reaper...I'm guessing I'd still be left with just midi code in reaper until I apply a VST to it ( from reaper ).

Mark
 
I was doing some reading on a few recommended midi controller keyboards and a couple seemed to come loaded with their own VST'S. Whilst I'm happy to experiment with VST'S and download a few into reaper, the ability to add a VST in the controller also appeals...just wondering how this would then translate to the track in reaper...I'm guessing I'd still be left with just midi code in reaper until I apply a VST to it ( from reaper ).

Mark

Some keyboards come bundled with assorted software, some including VSTs. However, these aren't loaded onto the keyboard itself. You have to install it on your computer and from there you can insert it into your DAW or sometimes run it as a stand-alone application.
 
For me, out of those three, id go with the Akai, but I would actually not buy any of them for me because I play with two hands, so my master keyboard has 88 notes. Using a 60 odd note keyboard would be a compromise, so moving to even less octaves would for me be a killer. However, you might not be a pianist or want to be, so it would t be a problem. Kontakt is an excellent product so their keyboards ar worth considering, buy I'd not want mini keys either. They all do the job they're designed for.
 
It needs to be compact so a 32 key board perfect
I wouldn't go for a 25 or 32 note keyboard. I wouldn't go for anything below 49 keys. Admittedly, with all of them you should be able to go up and down in octaves, but 49 is the perfect halfway house between compactness and a fairly wide scope.
It's a keyboard controller I'm looking for rather than just a keyboard. I write all my synth parts by playing along to the track...as far as I understand midi (without the use of a virtual keyboard ) I just dont get how I'd be able to create / write parts without a physical keyboard to experiment with. I can get that it's no problem if you're really proficient at music theory, have a good ear and can read music, but I'd just be guessing what notes will sound good as I programme into sequence.
I'm with you on that one. Right from the start of my virtual instrument life back in 2004, in fact, even before I got some of the gear, my intention was always to use a real time, real sound instrument and I quickly discovered that even back in 2004 it was viewed as passé. No one ever seemed to know what the heck I was talking about. It was like trying to explain to a high tech surgeon that I was trying to knock people out with a hammer over the head and some brandy before cutting them open. Except of course that if a bomb goes off and someone is trapped under the debris, one might have to perform a live amputation without the benefit of what you'd have in a theatre....
My point is that you know how you'd like to do things. Sometimes, advice that doesn't answer your specific request might be great ~ it might give you a way you'd be prepared to go with and open up different avenues that become part of your mode of recording. And it's good to consider a range of opinions sometimes, even if some of what you hear is outmoded.
I recall you specifying in another thread that you were very much a hobbyist and as such, I don't think up to the minute ways of doing things are really so important to the exclusion of anything older. I say that as someone that still records on an ancient standalone DAW.
Most of what I record is done on real instruments played by myself or friends or sung. But I also use VSTis exclusively for colouring with those instruments that I don't know anyone that plays them. I do things in real time, triggered from a controller keyboard. I have loads of VSTis housed in Cubase 5 essentials {well, there's ancient for you !} and what I do is connect my controller keyboard to the laptop that Cubase is in and basically go into whichever programme I want. I'll then audition sounds {although I've usually got an instrument in mind} and connect to my DAW and play in real time. I actually hate the idea of MIDI in the sense of inputting notes first and then just attaching the sound to those notes later. I don't know, I kind of see myself as very much a halfway house kind of hobbyist in the sense that I appreciate the progressions of the last 20 or so years but I also see no reason to abandon much of what I was comfortable with from "before." It would probably be different if I was on a deadline or if my livlihood depended on it ~ but it doesn't.
5 Come back to it a month later to redo, and try to remember what patch you used,
6 Come back to it a month later to redo, and try to remember what patch you used,
5 Come back to it a month later and the VST remembers what patch you used.
Because I'm often tweaking whatever parameters are part of the vsti, when I'm finished and logging out, the option always comes up to save that particular setting. I never do but I easily could.
Working with a hardware synth is a compromise and a historic way to work now - especially as music changes so rapidly, so that favourite bass synth sound is soon so old!
I pretty much agreed with most of what you said but not this bit. I don't think it's a compromise but with the caveat that if that's what a person wants. Same with the historic way to work and the changing nature of music today and the old sounds. I've long tended to be of the mind that rather than throw out the old, the new earns the right to sit alongside the old. I like specific keyboard sounds from a particular time {the late 50s ~ the early 80s}, be they mellotrons, synthesizers, electric pianos, clavinets, organs etc, for example. I may use them in ways that weren't being used when those instruments were in their infancy and heyday, but sonically, that's where my heart is.
 
I get that, but I've now got my ancient korg M1 sounds from a vsti and the korg is now leading up against the wall with the Roland from the same era. The Roland 1080 in the rack has gone too, and the Yamaha XG is on the way out too. My aim is to get the mixer out of the studio. A soundcraft that is only there to get the keys into the system with all the faders in a line is wasted space now. I still use the sounds in the korg triton for the moment, but at some point that will probably be replaced by a vsti hopefully. Every vsti is better than the real synth, not for sound, but for automation of the features. I have a Roland GS synth which I need at the moment so my hardware free studio can't happen quite yet, but it will come. I never sell old guitars or synths so my junk room has quite a growing pile I can't face selling, but the dust grows. My son has told me I'll probably die before I ever play the things, but I can't face selling them. He will!

Every time I load up old cubase files from the 90s, it takes ages to get the old synths patched and working, but much of my income comes from reworking old stuff, and it's infuriating when cubase tells you it can't talk to the 1080 and you have to repatch them to the equivalent vsti sound that often has different patch numbers. I'm very happy to lose hardware whenever I can.
 
I wouldn't go for a 25 or 32 note keyboard. I wouldn't go for anything below 49 keys. Admittedly, with all of them you should be able to go up and down in octaves, but 49 is the perfect halfway house between compactness and a fairly wide scope.
I'm with you on that one. Right from the start of my virtual instrument life back in 2004, in fact, even before I got some of the gear, my intention was always to use a real time, real sound instrument and I quickly discovered that even back in 2004 it was viewed as passé.

I can only relate to my previous way of working and have never explored midi...who knows, maybe 6 months down the line I'll wonder how I managed without it. I'm not a proficient keyboard player so the idea of easy edits without punch recording certainly appeals! ...and on reflection, I think you're probably right about the number of keys and 49 may be a nice balance for me ?
 
Bigger keyboards also work for those kinds of sample players that have loads of samples - percussion is a common one - so many different sounds that even a 49 key controller has perhaps 12 below and above what you have with sounds on. It also means you don't need to press buttons to go from a bass synth sound to a high lead sound - they're all there in the right place.
 
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