Maybe a dumb question, but ...

famous beagle

Well-known member
It wouldn't be my first, and it won't be my last. I play some keys, but it's not my main instrument at all, and so I'm not very knowledgeable with regards to keyboard rigs.

So ... in the 70s, most of the analog synths had a bunch of knobs or sliders, etc. that allowed you to tweak the sounds in real time right from the front panel. I realize, too, that this was the way you actually created the sounds in the first place (by twisting knobs flicking switches, etc.).

In the 80s, however, when digital synths arrived, the typical synth did away with all of those knobs and instead had mostly just buttons. You created the sounds with menus, etc.

My question is this: Why did all those knobs for real-time tweaking go away? If you wanted to sweep a filter while playing a digital synth, for example, what did you do?

My guess is that all of those options were MIDI-controllable. But if so, what MIDI controller was used to do it? I don't know that I've ever seen such a thing.


Anyway, thanks for any input. This has just always puzzled me. IMO, one of the coolest things about those analog synths is the full access to so many real-time tweaking features on the fly. And that doesn't seem to be available on a typical digital synth. Or am I wrong?
 

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I'm no synth expert, but I think the rising of digital synths with fewer controls was largely down to presets and instrument emulation.
Many of them made strings/trumpets etc out of the box and had limited controls.
I suppose the idea was that you'd no longer need to tweak and footer to make your own sounds.

You still get digital synths with full blown 'analog style' control though, as far as I know.
 
The pitch bend and mod wheels could probably be assigned to various parameters. Some keyboards have touch sensitive ribbon controllers, and you can add them to your keyboard via MIDI.
 
Lots of today's synths have knobs or sliders that can be set to perform certain functions. Many of the early 'digital' synths were quite limited in what you could do with them - pre-programmed sounds, with changes to them only being made by accessing multi-level menus.
 
Lots of today's synths have knobs or sliders that can be set to perform certain functions. Many of the early 'digital' synths were quite limited in what you could do with them - pre-programmed sounds, with changes to them only being made by accessing multi-level menus.

Yeah I've noticed that since the whole retro thing happened, a lot of synths (some of which are analog again, but even those "modeling" ones) have the knobs again.

But my question is why they disappeared in the first place when digital came around? Was it just out of fashion to tweak sounds in real time anymore or something?
 
Yeah I've noticed that since the whole retro thing happened, a lot of synths (some of which are analog again, but even those "modeling" ones) have the knobs again.

But my question is why they disappeared in the first place when digital came around? Was it just out of fashion to tweak sounds in real time anymore or something?
Here check out this link, it tells it much better than I can: Old Synths plus it is pretty interesting.
 
Here check out this link, it tells it much better than I can: Old Synths plus it is pretty interesting.

Thanks for the link. I read the page on modular Moogs, but I'm not exactly sure what I'm supposed to be seeing. I understand how older synths made sounds and all (I mean, for the most part).
 
Thanks for the link. I read the page on modular Moogs, but I'm not exactly sure what I'm supposed to be seeing. I understand how older synths made sounds and all (I mean, for the most part).
So they had these hardware sound generators, amplifiers, etc. that were controlled by capacitors, resistors, filters, etc. and these hardwired knobs and controls were used to change the sound. Once the IC came along and was able to integrate on a chip, had all of the presets, the knobs and sliders were no longer required (or wanted since it required a lot of real estate) just use the presets and you were set.

Really, the old synths were not really synthesized sound. Not sure why they called them synthesizers other than they were electronically created. But it was still all hardware.
 
Was it just out of fashion to tweak sounds in real time anymore or something?

The two main functions of knobs were to:

1 Set a sound, i.e. you turn this knob to that position, and you get that sound.

2 Move a sound, i.e. you turn a knob as you are playing to get a real time change in sound.

On synths such as the DX7, that requirement is still there. As a keyboard player, you still need to be able to set a sound or change it on the fly, but you do it in a different way, by, for example, using buttons to choose from menus, and to set parameters. You can assign various functions to the modulation wheels (at the left of the keyboard), and these do the work of the old-fashioned knobs.

Button operation is perhaps more complicated, and maybe less satisfying, than good old-fashioned knob-tweaking . . . but changing sounds on a moog is very tricky and slow. On a DX7, you press a button to select a preset sound that you have prepared earlier. That's much easier in a live setting.
 
Right, and that all makes sense. I can certainly understand the need for saving presets and bringing them up for instant recall in a live setting.

But even if you have both mod wheels assigned to do something (which is the most I've ever seen on a synth, and one is usually for pitch --- can those be assigned to something else as well?), that only gives you two parameters to change in real time. I don't know about y'all, but when I play with analog synths, I like to make adjustments to many more parameters than that on the fly. I mean, two wheels would only let you change, say, the filter cut off and the peak resonance, but what about speed, depth, etc. of modulation, etc. etc.?

To me, that's half of where the beauty of synths lies: one part is being able to synthesize (create) the sounds, and the other is being able to tweak the crap out of them.

Maybe I'm in the minority on this?
 
Right, and that all makes sense. I can certainly understand the need for saving presets and bringing them up for instant recall in a live setting.

But even if you have both mod wheels assigned to do something (which is the most I've ever seen on a synth, and one is usually for pitch --- can those be assigned to something else as well?), that only gives you two parameters to change in real time. I don't know about y'all, but when I play with analog synths, I like to make adjustments to many more parameters than that on the fly. I mean, two wheels would only let you change, say, the filter cut off and the peak resonance, but what about speed, depth, etc. of modulation, etc. etc.?

To me, that's half of where the beauty of synths lies: one part is being able to synthesize (create) the sounds, and the other is being able to tweak the crap out of them.

Maybe I'm in the minority on this?

Been looking that the little Phatty for this very reason. I am in your camp. Nice thing about the modern analog synths, is many of the parameters can be MIDI assigned. Might not be like old school, but maybe a good middle ground. The old analog sythns are pretty expensive, but its the real deal.
 
Been looking that the little Phatty for this very reason. I am in your camp. Nice thing about the modern analog synths, is many of the parameters can be MIDI assigned. Might not be like old school, but maybe a good middle ground. The old analog sythns are pretty expensive, but its the real deal.

You might want to look into the Sub Phatty. It has control parameter access that more closely resembles the original Minimoog and the Voyager.

I have a Taurus3 bass and it uses a similar control scheme as the LP. Kinda clunky. You have to push a button to select the parameter and then adjust the modwheel to set the new parameter.

If you want an LP I wouldn't wait around forever. The LP has been discontinued.

One problem with using MIDI to control certain parameters is stair-stepping, especially with 8-bit resolution.

If you looked around I bet you could find a used Voyager for $2000US.
 
Yeah I've noticed that since the whole retro thing happened, a lot of synths (some of which are analog again, but even those "modeling" ones) have the knobs again.

But my question is why they disappeared in the first place when digital came around? Was it just out of fashion to tweak sounds in real time anymore or something?

Analog monosynths disappeared in part because they were replaced by polyphonic digital synths. In the mid-late 80's folks were ditching their mono Minimoogs and even poly Oberheims for the simplicity of FM and later, PCM based synthesis.

Analog synthesis has been gaining over the last decade. The oscillators are much more temperature stable than they were 30 years ago. There has also been a recognition that the original analog keyboards were complex instruments all unto themselves. The current trend seems to be semi-modularity; adding more CV ins and outs to use as control signals. If you go to the Moog Forum at Moog Music you will see quite a few guys using both analog monosynths and modular devices integrated into their setups.

I have an 05 Voyager Electric Blue. IMHO I think it is the ultimate design achieved by Dr. Bob Moog. He took the best of what people dug about analog---- the 24dB filter, the full analog sound path, and the instant tweakability of having knobs for the majority of functions and combining these with digital encoders. The digital encoding allows for panel parameters and performance functions to be stored and recalled as patches. Current production models can store up to 896 patches stored across 7 banks. Another really cool function the digital encoders allow is called "pot mapping" which enables you to choose source and destination points and use digital signaling to alter the analog function of the pots in question.
 
This is part of my setup. The racked MoogerFoogers have CV inputs and outputs too, and are designed to hold one or two circuits that would have been individual pieces in the old modular days. So the MF-101 Lowpass Filter has two of these circuits---- the -24dB filter and the envelope. You can use a CV from another source to control parameters on the 101, or use the CV output of the envelope CV itself to shape sounds in another MoogerFooger.

Picture 005.jpg
 
This is part of my setup. The racked MoogerFoogers have CV inputs and outputs too, and are designed to hold one or two circuits that would have been individual pieces in the old modular days. So the MF-101 Lowpass Filter has two of these circuits---- the -24dB filter and the envelope. You can use a CV from another source to control parameters on the 101, or use the CV output of the envelope CV itself to shape sounds in another MoogerFooger.

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Now that is a setup! I bet that is close to $20K or more in equipment.
 
Oh no, more like $5-6k.

If I put $20k into synth gear my wife would get away with justifiable homicide.
 
Oh no, more like $5-6k.

If I put $20k into synth gear my wife would get away with justifiable homicide.

OK, I was doing my math wrong, rounding up, I figure each module was about $1000 and the keyboard close to $2K (some how I doubled thos numbers). Which would be a huge rounding error if most pieces cost around 600. That is still a nice setup.

Have you any tracks posted, would be interesting to hear original analog sound.
 
Nobody wants to hear me playing a monosynth.

You're better off listening to old stuff by Rick Wakeman and Keith Emerson. Or Devo. Or Kraftwerk. Or The Cars. Or Joe Walsh. Walsh is apparently really big into analog synths. Billy Corgan too.

For some more modern guys using analog stuff check out Steve Molitz from Particle or Adam McDougal, or Beck.
 
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