keyboards-midi-drum tracks?

T

thebear

New member
Howdy!!!! New to this home recording madness and now that I have started, it only brings up more and more questions. I have been looking around at keyboards and I am not sure exactly what I am looking at. I will ask these questions as clear as possible.

I am looking to learn piano (been playing guitar for about 20+ years), and do not understand the reasoning of buying a keyboard/piano that does not have all 88 keys? Any input?

Another reason for buying a keyboard/piano is to be able to make my own drum tracks. Is this a good way to go? And wanting all 88 keys, is this a good way to go or would buying a drum machine, or a keyboard with less than 88 keys be better?


Don't know anything about midi, just built a PC to enter the "recording" world. P3-800, 256mb ram, and the SB Live with the LineDrive. From playing with it and CakePro9, and from hanging out here I keep hearing about SOUNDFONTS, my card came with Vienna(?) and have no clue what they are. I know that some keyboards can "make" drum sounds, but not sure which way to go.

So....to get to the bottom....I would like to by a midi/keyboard/piano, would like to learn piano, but would LOVE to make cool drum tracks for my tunes, any help on this would be great. Thank you in advance!!!
 
Hey thebear,

If I understand you correctly, if you plan on taking piano lessons, as in learning to play an acoustic piano then the 88 key workstation is what you are going to want to get.
You see as far as keyboards go the keys are not "weighted" until you get up to the 88 keys as far as electronic keyboards go. Weighted meaning having the feel of playing an acoustic piano.

If you want the above features and drum sounds and the ability to create midi compositions ,you want to get a workstation. A workstation is a combination of a Midi controller (the actual keys of the keyboard themselves)
A sound module or/and tone generator, and a sequencer (basicly a midi data recorder) all in one.

Example of a workstation would be the Korg Triton. Being that I am not a full fledge pianist I went with the
64 key Triton. The only thing that the 88 key version has that the 64 doesnt is the extra keys and the keys
are not weighted. There is about at least a $1000 difference in price. This is pretty standard for all makes.

With a workstation like the Triton, you can create your drums parts by tapping out the drum parts on the keys and record into the Tritons internal sequencer, or use the keys to tap out your drums but record on a computer software sequencing program like Cakewalk.

Using the same method above you can create your other instrumental arrangements like horns, strings, etc
with each on its own track either within the Triton or Cakewalk. You are limited on how many tracks you can
record in a keyboard sequencer and most are 16. With Cakewalk you can have up to 256 tracks.

You could also go the separate drum machine route.
Ive found that my drum machine is easier to use as far as creating drum sequences than the keyboard. That might simply be because I had the drum machine first.

To synopsize, you can get by with the 64 or 76 keyboard versions of any of them as far as composing
and recording is concerned. If youre looking to become
a pianist you will need the weighted keys (88) otherwise
your instructor will wonder why your fingers are so weak:)

Hope this helps, any more questions let me know!
 
ahh...just a bear..lost in the woods//

Ok, I am getting this keyboard/midi thing down, slowly but surely. No, I wasn't planning on taking lessons, just was going to try and "hack" my way through learning, and thought that having all of the keys would be logical, you know??. I was asking questions in another thread and found that I guess that I could get by with a "controller" and a "module". They suggested a Roland JV10(?) I was just trying to get an Idea of what the difference was and I am seeing that the weighted keys, and number of keys and price are an issue. I built a radical PC and have CaKeWalk PRO9 (still learning...slow, but sure :) ) and I would like mainly to create percussion, and drum tracks, and some other "funky" sounds, and I think that "pounding" the beats out on a keyboard would be the way to go.

Is a workstation a module? I am going to check out the Roland that another thread suggested. Thank you for the input!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Hey bear!

Here's the jist of the whole thang.

1. A workstation is a keyboard with different sounds and the ability to record (sequence) different sounds from the workstation (drums, bass, piano, organ, horns, etc) to make a song. You can get 88 key workstations, 76, and 64.

2. A module is a small rack type or box looking device that just has the sounds, and features etc. from a keyboard or workstation - just that - it doesn't have a keyboard to actually play.

3. A controller is a keyboard, some have sounds and other capabilities, others are just that, a keyboard which produce no sounds but "control" the sounds from a separate module (see above) to produce the music.
So, like the person in the other thread said) with a separate controller (keys) and a module (sounds) you can make music.

I have both types - a keyboard with the sounds and a sequencer built in (workstation), other keyboards which have the sounds and ability to edit the sounds and combine them, and a Kurzweil PC88MX which is the 88 weighted keys controller, sounds and controlling abilities to control other synths, modules, drum machines, etc. I got the Kurzweil because when I play with the band live I want that full 88 key ability and the weighted note feel. I have other keyboards (Korg X5D) for the organ sounds and pads, etc. because I don't like the weighted note feel for those sounds.

If you are looking into playing the piano just to learn notes and chords, and to be able to play (key) different sounds for recording on a computer (drums, bass, organ, etc) BUT YOU'RE REALLY NOT INTERESTED IN THE FEEL OF PLAYING A WEIGHTED KEY KEYBOARD, then you would do well to save some money and buy a 64 note keyboard. You wouldn't need a workstation unless you don't plan on recording to software on your computer.

4. As far as drum sounds, I record both with the drum sounds on my keyboards (mostly for congas) and with an Alesis SR16 drum machine (which some folks on this BBS don't care for). The value of using the keyboard's drum sounds is that you only have one thing connecting to your computer, whereas with the drum machine you would need a midi box or a sound card on your computer with at least two stereo line in connections. The other value with using your drums from the keyboard is you are only buying one piece of equipment. A decent drum machine is at least $200 with the better ones running around $300 to $500. Although some of the drum sounds on a lot of keyboards really suck, some of the newer keyboards have some pretty good drum sounds. So it becomes a matter of taste and your wallet combined.

If you go the keyboard only route, I would strongly suggest going to a larger music store where you can actually hear the different sounds that each keyboard has to offer. Don't get lead astray by all of the weird space, nature, etc sounds. Think of the sounds you would mostly use in recording your music (drums, bass, piano, electric piano, organ, horns, strings, etc) and focus on how well those sound on the keyboard you're thinking of buying. WARNING! It's almost impossible to find a keyboard having all of the sounds you want sound absolutely fantastic, so think of the ones you use the most and make sure you like those sounds.
And don't do what a friend of mine did a few years ago. He was so worried about buying a keyboard that would be obsolete in a year that he didn't buy anything - then ended up buying one a used one that was exactly the same model as my oldest keyboard (go figure). A lot of the newer keyboards can be upgraded with sound cards and downloads from the internet.

Hope this helps -

mutt
 
hello mutt from...from a bear!!!

Cool, the more info the better. Checked out Rolands website (it was horrible, to much flash and most of the links dead ended) but found that it was about 500.00 (musicians friend). By the pictures it sounds way more complicated than I am interested in, I am having enough learning (growing ?) pains digesting CakeWalk. My sound card (although no one seems to like it, but me :) ) is a SB Live Platinum with LineDrive. I really like it so far.

I am planning on going to a couple of HUGE guitar stores and "sampling" the wares. Thanx for the suggestions. I think that I would go the more expensive route, with an 88 key, just because it would have the feel of a piano and I always wanted to learn. From what I am hearing I could get one that will do most of what I want (percussion, drums, soundz) and still be like playing a piano if I wanted to go that route. I guess that I will have to play them and see what I like best. I really appreciate the breakdown of all the different "parts"......see what happens when you try to give a keyboard to guitar player!!! You should here my father yell at me when I play the bass!!! I keep trying to jam out leads!!!!!! lol!! I will also take your suggestion of looking for ones that do more drum, and congas would be way cool!!! A lot of software came with the card like, Vienna sound fonts, and Recycle, Drag and Drop Drummer (thinking of buying the "full" version, it had some really cool drum sounds/patterns) but I will bring up questions on those in another thread to keep this thread on key, there is a lot of great information on this topic in this thread!!!!

You mentioned that :
"A lot of the newer keyboards can be upgraded with sound cards and downloads from the internet. "

What do you mean by this? Does some of the software that came with my card let you "make" new sounds, or do you download new "banks" of sounds, like the built in "banks" on my guitar processor?

Sorry if I am asking dumb questions, but there is just so much to learn and you all have been a great help educating this eager "woodland" creature of a bear!!!!!Some times I wish there were just two types of guitars, only ONE amp/keyboard/recording software/mic/cable/soundcard/etc,etc....to choose from!! But then again.....it would take out all of the fun. I can only play one guitar at a time, but own a dozen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I shall return, thanks again to all!!!!!!!!!! Music is really like a disease for the weak!!!
 
I agree that if you're not primarily a pianist, you don't need weighted keys - and if you're not planning to play live (where you would need more keys for ranges - meaning needing to trigger organ horns and strings all in one song) you don't need 88 keys. In most applications, you rarely use the keys way on top and way on the bottom. Almost any current keyboard/module has decent drum sounds.

I think you would be satisfied with a 61 key, but obviously you need to please yourself. Keep in mind an 88 with weighted keys is very heavy and very long (and very expensive), make sure your studio has room to accomodate such a large board.

I would suggest a keyboard with sounds rather than a MIDI controller and a module, simply because it is an all in one unit. If you don't understand MIDI, hooking up a controller to a module and assigning MIDI transmit channels, etc. requires a learning curve.

The reference to sound cards means you can insert "expansion cards" to access additional sound. Lets say the keyboard/module you get has 500 "on board" sounds, but you don't like the brass sounds on it. You could buy a sound card which provides better brass sound (lets say another 100 sounds), insert the card into a slot on your board and have access to 600 sounds.

When buying a keyboard, you need to determine what you want it to do. In addition to the 88 key vs. 61 key, weighted vs. not weighted and keyboard vs. module issues, other considerations should be - What sounds do you need? Realistic piano, vs. the ability to "tweak" and create your own sounds? Do you need the ability to expand for additional sounds? Do you need an on board sequencer, or do you plan to record to a multitrack? Do you need a keydoard that can be split to allow playing more than one sound in real time (vs. multiple MIDI channels?)

You are asking questions - which is good. You may want to get a book on MIDI keyboards, to get a better understanding on all the things they can do. As your chops improve, you'll want your keyboard to grow with you.
 
cool, thanks everyone!!

Well, the more I read and listen here...the more I am learning. I am extremely new to the recording scene (like ya'll couldn't tell!!!) I am gearing towards not getting an 88 key piano, the price is dramatically higher for all that ivory (plastic ???) !!!

My basic situation is I am recording with CakePRo9, and have found that now that I have figured out how to get the guitars onto the computer........one must now have drums......I have been playing around with what came with the soundcard, and I will probably buy the full version of Drag and Drop Drummer, seeing how it and Cake get along so well.

The learning keyboard/piano was an idea that I had, seeing how a midi keyboard can be used for sounds, drums, percussion that I would get one with 88 keys. I am unable to get the big music stores for about a week or so to actually play around with some of them, but I am going to take everyones advice and be realistic with a 61 or so keyboard, because the main point, and the most realistic point, is that I want to add percussion, drums, maybe flute, or soundz, to the guitar tracks. From what I am gathering a workstation/keyboard is the way to go.

Now that I have a basic understanding of all the concepts and new terminology, and found that the main thing that I will be doing is creating drum/percussion tracks.......the question of the day is..........what brands do ya'll suggest for this direction??? So I can sort of narrow it down when I have a pocket full of plastic, hanging out in a HUGE music store????

I now know to look for one that has expansion cards so that I can upgrade or add sounds if I need or want. The LineDrive is also cool for us beginner types because it has midi hookups right in front, don't have to go through the joystick connection. I can't thank you all enough for the input, I really appreciate it. SoSee ya later!!!
 
Hey Bear

I saw a recent Musician's Friend catalog with the Kurzweil K2VX 61 key work station, factory reconditioned, on board sequencer, floppy disc drive , expandable, etc. It has great sounds for $1200. Check it out.



mutt
 
thanx again!!

On my way to the site now, thanx Mr Mutt!!!! Can't get away to play at the stores till the following weekend, any and all suggestions will be greatly appreciated! I would much rather check the gear out on line before going to the music stores so that I have an idea of what I am looking at, and prices, so I can compare!!!!! I shall return!!!
 
The Roland XP30 is a good all around "performance" keyboard. It's got good on board sounds (and alot of them - about 1,000 sounds), it also has room for two additional expansion boards. It's easy to learn to use, light weight and reasonably inexpensive. It doesn't have a sequencer (but you don't need one if you have Cakewalk) - It does have a pretty decent appeggio, with multiple patterns.

I got an XP30 after looking at several different boards - it served my needs (I'm primarily a drummer - but I have decent keyboard/guitar chops). I got the XP30 for recording, but it makes a good live keyboard as well.

However - Kurzweil, Korg, Yamaha and General Music all make good products as well - it all depends on what you need.
 
Thanx!

Thanx for the input, I have been surfing and studying all of the keyboards. I appreciate any and all input. Later
 
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