Disassembling FATAR keyboard to clean - Help!
- Thread starter Toddskins
- Start date
Contact strips don't add up to 88
Hi Todd,
First, thanks for all your research and documentation on the Fatar keyboard issues and fixes. I'm wondering if you (or anyone else) has resolved the 3 key discrepancy you discovered when 6 - 12 contact strips and 1 - 13 contact strip only adds up to 85 keys, not 88.
Thanks again.
John
"
Hi Todd,
First, thanks for all your research and documentation on the Fatar keyboard issues and fixes. I'm wondering if you (or anyone else) has resolved the 3 key discrepancy you discovered when 6 - 12 contact strips and 1 - 13 contact strip only adds up to 85 keys, not 88.
Thanks again.
John
"
Todd, I picked up the K2500x over the weekend for $525! It is a project keyboard. It had a broken side panel that I've already fixed with auto body filler and paint. it looks quite decent--it was just the bottom front corner.
The keys are faded ivory rather than white. It did not respond to Fantastic or bleach--I'll be tickling the ivory.
The batteries needed replacement--we'll see if there is a short somewhere contributing to it but one of the 3 was completely dead--an encouraging sign.
It has 16 megs of ram--exactly what I need for the 16 meg stereo piano I now play from my K2000r.
It also had an internal 1gb hard drive. I removed it--I don't want any additional load on the old power supply. I plan to sell it. I use external zip 100s--scsi & usb to load & swap samples from my PC.
There were no other optional components.
The os is 2.8 and I cannot get it to go into boot-loader mode to upgrade to v3. The Exit key + power on does not work to get in nor does 1+2+3 during power on that works on my K2000.
Any ideas for getting into boot-loader?
I'll have to open it again to check the versions of the rom chips.
I like the K2500's organs which is important. I think I'll like the ZR-76's piano and its lighter weight for live work but like my 16 meg stereo krz samples for recording.
The acoustic-EL combo will work.
I don't like the lack of a nylon guitar, harp and tympani. I have the orch expansion on my K2000. I suppose I'll have to look through my old Ensoniq ASR-10 samples.
I also like the 88 keys and additional controllers.
However I also like the ZR-76: higher polyphony, a much better variety of drums, drum machine and Idea Pad for composers. I may end up selling the K2500x rather than the ZR & K2000r. They are probably worth about the same. If the ZR had 88 keys I would certainly keep it.
Do you know if it requires the internal fan now that I've removed the internal Hard drive?
The keys are faded ivory rather than white. It did not respond to Fantastic or bleach--I'll be tickling the ivory.
The batteries needed replacement--we'll see if there is a short somewhere contributing to it but one of the 3 was completely dead--an encouraging sign.
It has 16 megs of ram--exactly what I need for the 16 meg stereo piano I now play from my K2000r.
It also had an internal 1gb hard drive. I removed it--I don't want any additional load on the old power supply. I plan to sell it. I use external zip 100s--scsi & usb to load & swap samples from my PC.
There were no other optional components.
The os is 2.8 and I cannot get it to go into boot-loader mode to upgrade to v3. The Exit key + power on does not work to get in nor does 1+2+3 during power on that works on my K2000.
Any ideas for getting into boot-loader?
I'll have to open it again to check the versions of the rom chips.
I like the K2500's organs which is important. I think I'll like the ZR-76's piano and its lighter weight for live work but like my 16 meg stereo krz samples for recording.
The acoustic-EL combo will work.
I don't like the lack of a nylon guitar, harp and tympani. I have the orch expansion on my K2000. I suppose I'll have to look through my old Ensoniq ASR-10 samples.
I also like the 88 keys and additional controllers.
However I also like the ZR-76: higher polyphony, a much better variety of drums, drum machine and Idea Pad for composers. I may end up selling the K2500x rather than the ZR & K2000r. They are probably worth about the same. If the ZR had 88 keys I would certainly keep it.
Do you know if it requires the internal fan now that I've removed the internal Hard drive?
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Hi Todd,
Any input on the descepancy in the total keys covered by the contact strips you suggested (85 vs 88)... see below. I'm getting ready to rip my K2500X apart to upgrade memory, add PRAM, add daughterboard w/ROMS and tackle the key contact issues that I have. I think I may have broken weight issues also as a few of the keys don't seem to have as much resistance and return as the others.
Thanks.
John
Hi Todd,
First, thanks for all your research and documentation on the Fatar keyboard issues and fixes. I'm wondering if you (or anyone else) has resolved the 3 key discrepancy you discovered when 6 - 12 contact strips and 1 - 13 contact strip only adds up to 85 keys, not 88.
Thanks again.
John
Any input on the descepancy in the total keys covered by the contact strips you suggested (85 vs 88)... see below. I'm getting ready to rip my K2500X apart to upgrade memory, add PRAM, add daughterboard w/ROMS and tackle the key contact issues that I have. I think I may have broken weight issues also as a few of the keys don't seem to have as much resistance and return as the others.
Thanks.
John
Hi Todd,
First, thanks for all your research and documentation on the Fatar keyboard issues and fixes. I'm wondering if you (or anyone else) has resolved the 3 key discrepancy you discovered when 6 - 12 contact strips and 1 - 13 contact strip only adds up to 85 keys, not 88.
Thanks again.
John
Additional pics of a similar keyboard are here.
http://www.somewhereoutwest.com/kurzweil_key.html
http://www.somewhereoutwest.com/kurzweil_key.html
Not sure if I should start a new post, but I'm considering a used PC88. About 8 of the keys squeak. According to some posts on this forum, it seems the Fatar counterweight mechanisms are broken. Has anyone replaced these parts themselves? I'm not too concerned about working on the keyboard, but I wouldn't want to render it useless by mistake.
PC 88 Sqeaky Keys
I used to own one. Many keys squeaked a bit. I put a tiny bit of petroleum jelly on the rubber pad on the weight that the bottom of the key touches. That's it. See the pic of a very similar Ensoniq ZR 76 that I also repaired. The yellow-green section applies to your situation.
Joe
I used to own one. Many keys squeaked a bit. I put a tiny bit of petroleum jelly on the rubber pad on the weight that the bottom of the key touches. That's it. See the pic of a very similar Ensoniq ZR 76 that I also repaired. The yellow-green section applies to your situation.
Joe
Attachments
Awesome! Thank you!
Sir, I owe you.
The pictures were great, the discussion was great, the attention to detail was great!
Thank you!
Do you have a paypal account? I owe you for helping me fix my Kurzweil PC2X.
I had a Bb go out just before 2 weeks worth of gigs. I ended up playing the gigs without the key which was okay, but wondered what I was going to do after the shows. Tonight, I finally disassembled the thing, saw that there wasn't an errant guitar pick (I play guitar and have been known to lose picks inbetween keys) and then stumbled into your forum here...
Let us know your Paypal, and maybe the other guys that have also benefitted from your detailed photos and discussions here will realize how much you've helped them too!
Also, feel free to grab some free music off my site. It's the least I can do in addition: www.jimmygelhaar.com
Thanks again!!!!
p.s. - I torn down my board to the rubber pads on the touch sensitive switches and cleaned the rubber and switch contacts with denatured alcohol... Worked like a charm!
Sir, I owe you.
The pictures were great, the discussion was great, the attention to detail was great!
Thank you!
Do you have a paypal account? I owe you for helping me fix my Kurzweil PC2X.
I had a Bb go out just before 2 weeks worth of gigs. I ended up playing the gigs without the key which was okay, but wondered what I was going to do after the shows. Tonight, I finally disassembled the thing, saw that there wasn't an errant guitar pick (I play guitar and have been known to lose picks inbetween keys) and then stumbled into your forum here...
Let us know your Paypal, and maybe the other guys that have also benefitted from your detailed photos and discussions here will realize how much you've helped them too!
Also, feel free to grab some free music off my site. It's the least I can do in addition: www.jimmygelhaar.com
Thanks again!!!!
p.s. - I torn down my board to the rubber pads on the touch sensitive switches and cleaned the rubber and switch contacts with denatured alcohol... Worked like a charm!
Toddskins
Member
Great to hear
Well that's one fantastic response. Thanks for the feedback. The whole purpose was to help people like you, and not have to get taken over the coals by a repair shop.
It appears as though you have the electronics skill I am in need of. Since you are eager to give back, if you are ever in St. Louis, MO (not too far from Carthage, IL) I need help getting rid of static in the circuitry of my Virtual Analog synthesizer, Novation Supernova II. The Right channel of the phone jack, and the Right Main Out, both are causing obnoxious static in all my patches. It's not a loose cord or ring around the jack input.
I'll be happy to let you work on it if you ever travel this way! Anyways, glad to hear that this site has helped you. Cheers!
Well that's one fantastic response. Thanks for the feedback. The whole purpose was to help people like you, and not have to get taken over the coals by a repair shop.
It appears as though you have the electronics skill I am in need of. Since you are eager to give back, if you are ever in St. Louis, MO (not too far from Carthage, IL) I need help getting rid of static in the circuitry of my Virtual Analog synthesizer, Novation Supernova II. The Right channel of the phone jack, and the Right Main Out, both are causing obnoxious static in all my patches. It's not a loose cord or ring around the jack input.
I'll be happy to let you work on it if you ever travel this way! Anyways, glad to hear that this site has helped you. Cheers!
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A little different situation but maybe somebody on this tread can help me.
Please HELP!!!!!! And If YOU cant help, PLEASE POINT ME TO SOMEONE WHO CAN!!!!!! Desperate!
This is the closet thread I've found that's even remotely close to my situation.
I recently bought a used Fatar Studio 90 Plus Midi Keyboard. (88 weight keys, built into a road case.)
I was really working on a super thin budget, and was able to buy this cheap, under a $100! I was really excited about the fact that it was built into it's own road case.
The keybed it currently has installed is a model: Fatar tp/10, and I've definitely experienced the broken/cracked plastic hammers as well as worn out felt causing squeaking sounds when notes/keys are played (for me it's every single key!)
After buying it I completely disassembled it, cleaned it to the best of my ability, and removed some cracked plastic pieces that must of broke when UPS shipped it to me, and then put it all back together. And everything worked like it should.
At the time, I didn't realize I could do the petroleum Jelly trick to help the squeaking, but even that wouldn't fix the overall feel. Now, I'm not saying it's horrible. But I would like something a little better.
Recently I came across a used bare keybed (Fatar TP/40), also for under $100 on ebay. The seller said it was pulled from some other digital piano.
Like the Fatar TP/10, also has 88 weighted keys, but with much better action/feel due to the improved hammer system.
So I bought it. And I was hoping that some way, some how, I could switch out the TP/40 for the old TP/10.
Worst Case scenario:
I cant replace the keybed, I do the jelly trick and deal with the TP/10 bed and then try to get my money back for the Tp/40 on ebay or craigslist.
That I can live with. But I thought, with the two beds being from the same company, the dimensions and builds being similiar, I thought it was worth a shot at trying this project.
Unfortunately though, I cannot just simply unplug the old keybed (Fatar TP/10) and replace it with the new one (Fatar TP/40), due to two different types of connections. I believe this Tp/40 came with some electronics still on it that were made for the digital piano it came out of.
I bought it with hopes that there might be a very small chance that it would work out that way.
So can any you help me? And If not, do you know of any tech/company/forum, etc who could? PLEASE! I would be truly grateful!!
i’ve included some URL links below, so you can see what parts I have.
Link to my keyboard (Fatar Studio 90 Plus) not mine actually, but an identical example
http://www.daddys.com/images/usedgear/FAT10309_1.jpg
Link to OLD keybed:
http://www.fatar.com/pages/TP_MDF_MDS.htm
Link to NEW keybed:
http://www.fatar.com/pages/TP_40_GH_ES.htm
and I've also attached a couple of pictures of the TP/40 bed showing the types of connections and electronics it has on the bottom of it.
Thanks Guys
Josh
Please HELP!!!!!! And If YOU cant help, PLEASE POINT ME TO SOMEONE WHO CAN!!!!!! Desperate!
This is the closet thread I've found that's even remotely close to my situation.
I recently bought a used Fatar Studio 90 Plus Midi Keyboard. (88 weight keys, built into a road case.)
I was really working on a super thin budget, and was able to buy this cheap, under a $100! I was really excited about the fact that it was built into it's own road case.
The keybed it currently has installed is a model: Fatar tp/10, and I've definitely experienced the broken/cracked plastic hammers as well as worn out felt causing squeaking sounds when notes/keys are played (for me it's every single key!)
After buying it I completely disassembled it, cleaned it to the best of my ability, and removed some cracked plastic pieces that must of broke when UPS shipped it to me, and then put it all back together. And everything worked like it should.
At the time, I didn't realize I could do the petroleum Jelly trick to help the squeaking, but even that wouldn't fix the overall feel. Now, I'm not saying it's horrible. But I would like something a little better.
Recently I came across a used bare keybed (Fatar TP/40), also for under $100 on ebay. The seller said it was pulled from some other digital piano.
Like the Fatar TP/10, also has 88 weighted keys, but with much better action/feel due to the improved hammer system.
So I bought it. And I was hoping that some way, some how, I could switch out the TP/40 for the old TP/10.
Worst Case scenario:
I cant replace the keybed, I do the jelly trick and deal with the TP/10 bed and then try to get my money back for the Tp/40 on ebay or craigslist.
That I can live with. But I thought, with the two beds being from the same company, the dimensions and builds being similiar, I thought it was worth a shot at trying this project.
Unfortunately though, I cannot just simply unplug the old keybed (Fatar TP/10) and replace it with the new one (Fatar TP/40), due to two different types of connections. I believe this Tp/40 came with some electronics still on it that were made for the digital piano it came out of.
I bought it with hopes that there might be a very small chance that it would work out that way.
So can any you help me? And If not, do you know of any tech/company/forum, etc who could? PLEASE! I would be truly grateful!!
i’ve included some URL links below, so you can see what parts I have.
Link to my keyboard (Fatar Studio 90 Plus) not mine actually, but an identical example
http://www.daddys.com/images/usedgear/FAT10309_1.jpg
Link to OLD keybed:
http://www.fatar.com/pages/TP_MDF_MDS.htm
Link to NEW keybed:
http://www.fatar.com/pages/TP_40_GH_ES.htm
and I've also attached a couple of pictures of the TP/40 bed showing the types of connections and electronics it has on the bottom of it.
Thanks Guys
Josh
Attachments
Toddskins
Member
Clarify
So let me see if I understand you correctly. You're looking for help on how to electronically connect the 2nd keybed into the road case of the first, right?
And the connector plugs are not the same on these 2 keyboards.
If I am reading you correctly, you need to locate a musician's electronics repair store in your city (where do you live?), so ask all the right questions on the phone to make sure they work on keyboards and can do the job you require.
If one of the keyboards also has MIDI pressure or release velocity in it, and the other does not, that could account for the different plug, though theoretically you should still be able to do what you want.
Let's say the 2nd keyboard did in fact send Pressure info., and or release velocity info., then that keyboard's wiring harness might have additional wires on it for that reason. Nevertheless, theoretically, you should still be able to make it work, i.e. those wires would just not get utilized in the 1st keyboard (the Fatar 90).
Then again, maybe the additional parameters of Pressure and Release Velocity, all run on the same basic MIDI wire and additional wires would have nothing to do with those parameters. ??? I don't know.
Next, whether or not you could splice the Fatar 90's plugs onto this other keyboard's wires, is something you need to speak to a keyboard electronics expert on. Theoretically, it would seem as though something like that could be done, since both keyboards are made by Fatar, and you're dealing with the standard protocol of MIDI.
Lining up the correct color and numbered wires into the plug of the Fatar 90, is not really something that is difficult to do, but the question is is this something that can actually be done?
Ask "dementedchord" on here, as I believe he is a retired keyboard technician. He should be able to give you a knowledgeable answer.
So let me see if I understand you correctly. You're looking for help on how to electronically connect the 2nd keybed into the road case of the first, right?
And the connector plugs are not the same on these 2 keyboards.
If I am reading you correctly, you need to locate a musician's electronics repair store in your city (where do you live?), so ask all the right questions on the phone to make sure they work on keyboards and can do the job you require.
If one of the keyboards also has MIDI pressure or release velocity in it, and the other does not, that could account for the different plug, though theoretically you should still be able to do what you want.
Let's say the 2nd keyboard did in fact send Pressure info., and or release velocity info., then that keyboard's wiring harness might have additional wires on it for that reason. Nevertheless, theoretically, you should still be able to make it work, i.e. those wires would just not get utilized in the 1st keyboard (the Fatar 90).
Then again, maybe the additional parameters of Pressure and Release Velocity, all run on the same basic MIDI wire and additional wires would have nothing to do with those parameters. ??? I don't know.
Next, whether or not you could splice the Fatar 90's plugs onto this other keyboard's wires, is something you need to speak to a keyboard electronics expert on. Theoretically, it would seem as though something like that could be done, since both keyboards are made by Fatar, and you're dealing with the standard protocol of MIDI.
Lining up the correct color and numbered wires into the plug of the Fatar 90, is not really something that is difficult to do, but the question is is this something that can actually be done?
Ask "dementedchord" on here, as I believe he is a retired keyboard technician. He should be able to give you a knowledgeable answer.
dementedchord
Psychotic State alumni ch
gthis is doable several ways maybe... but before i say for sure ya gotta get me somemore pix of the wiring harnesses for both boards... that is to say the bottoms of both key decks... i suspect that you could simply plug it in with some lite work for the wirring... worst case?? take the keybed pcbs and switch them to the new keydeck using which ever key contacts that appear to be best condition... if you're not up to that then move the trashed keys on the original to the extreme ends and play the middle... @75% of piano repertoir can be done on 61 keys... 90% on 76... thats why those were picked as the typical keybeds... the electronics your showing btw is the key scanner... later bob
PC Board modifications too...
Another problem you may run into if you try to swap the new PC board for the old, its NOT just a simple question of rearranging the wires on the plug headers. Keyboards, like any other set of multiple keys input devices (like computer keyboards) are usually arranged in an XY "matrix" such that when you press a particular key, it connects 2 or more points together. Here's a very very simplistic explanation: There are several of these points, as many as there are keys in fact. Then those points are routed to the conenctor and ribbon cable that goes to the main board. An example: you strike the key of C4. This connects the 1-st and 8-th wires of the ribbon cable together. You strike an A#2 key, this connects the 3-rd and 9-th wires together, and so forth.
You may have to do some rewiring of the pc board itself to get the same combination of the key matrix as the old board. In fact, the rewiring may be so extensive that its not worth it. here's an ASCII illustration of what I mean by key matrixes:
0--0--0--0--0----------- A
|--|--|--|--|------------ B
0--0--0--0--0----------- C
|--|--|--|--|------------ D
0--0--0--0--0----------- E
1--2--3--4--5
Example: On the old board, the upper left hand point corresponds to the C5 key and when pressed, it conencts wire A and 1 together. But on the new board, when C5 is pressed, it actually conencts wire B and 5 together. Different manufacturers wire their matrixes differently. The concept is always the same but its up to the engineer designer to decide how he connects things between the keybed and the main board.
EDIT: Sorry for the bad graphics... this thing uses proportional fonts so things don't line up properly but I think you get the picture anyways
John
Another problem you may run into if you try to swap the new PC board for the old, its NOT just a simple question of rearranging the wires on the plug headers. Keyboards, like any other set of multiple keys input devices (like computer keyboards) are usually arranged in an XY "matrix" such that when you press a particular key, it connects 2 or more points together. Here's a very very simplistic explanation: There are several of these points, as many as there are keys in fact. Then those points are routed to the conenctor and ribbon cable that goes to the main board. An example: you strike the key of C4. This connects the 1-st and 8-th wires of the ribbon cable together. You strike an A#2 key, this connects the 3-rd and 9-th wires together, and so forth.
You may have to do some rewiring of the pc board itself to get the same combination of the key matrix as the old board. In fact, the rewiring may be so extensive that its not worth it. here's an ASCII illustration of what I mean by key matrixes:
0--0--0--0--0----------- A
|--|--|--|--|------------ B
0--0--0--0--0----------- C
|--|--|--|--|------------ D
0--0--0--0--0----------- E
1--2--3--4--5
Example: On the old board, the upper left hand point corresponds to the C5 key and when pressed, it conencts wire A and 1 together. But on the new board, when C5 is pressed, it actually conencts wire B and 5 together. Different manufacturers wire their matrixes differently. The concept is always the same but its up to the engineer designer to decide how he connects things between the keybed and the main board.
EDIT: Sorry for the bad graphics... this thing uses proportional fonts so things don't line up properly but I think you get the picture anyways
John
dementedchord
Psychotic State alumni ch
hope ya didn't have a stroke thinking that through... cause it's all for naught... i'm relitively sure that the key switch boards ar the same... may even have thye same part #s... one reason a board becomes a standard issue in the oem world is because it stays the same from model tp model... and there are ;otsa keyboards out there with this same fatar keyybed....
Toddskins
Member
Too funny. LOL
HaHa don't worry for my heart, its good !
What I was merely trying to point out is to think out the details. Of course, if the replacement part is a direct "drop-in" replacement from the OEM, then what I wrote above does not apply. I've seen many times when the drop-in wasn't 100% compatible; minor electrical or mechanical differences to work around, etc.
Speaking of parts replacements and mods, do any of you know if there is an adequate supply of spare parts in good to new condition for the K2500nn ? From reading the threads it seems I cans get stuff from The Midi Store; and I found a few other suppliers like sounddoctorin.com and syntaur.com, etc... I hope they ship hassle-free to Canada ! I'm getting ready to overhaul a recently acquired K2500XS; some keys aree likely dirty contacts and others are noisy (keyweight or worn felt parts) or squeaky.
Thx
J
What I was merely trying to point out is to think out the details. Of course, if the replacement part is a direct "drop-in" replacement from the OEM, then what I wrote above does not apply. I've seen many times when the drop-in wasn't 100% compatible; minor electrical or mechanical differences to work around, etc.
Speaking of parts replacements and mods, do any of you know if there is an adequate supply of spare parts in good to new condition for the K2500nn ? From reading the threads it seems I cans get stuff from The Midi Store; and I found a few other suppliers like sounddoctorin.com and syntaur.com, etc... I hope they ship hassle-free to Canada ! I'm getting ready to overhaul a recently acquired K2500XS; some keys aree likely dirty contacts and others are noisy (keyweight or worn felt parts) or squeaky.
Thx
J
Toddskins
Member
Speaking of keyweight, maybe you could take a photo or two when you get your Kurzweil disassembled, and explain and post your technique of what a keyweight problem looks like, and how you fix it.
This comes up fairly often on Keyboard threads. If I'm not mistaken, it is a weight inside the key that has gotten loose, and throws a counterweight feeling while playing.
You could show the weight in the key, what it looks like when properly set contrasted with a photo of being out of alignment...
If you're up for it, I think it would be a good post.