u2 bass, is it compression?

cordura21

cordura21

New member
hi guys.
Last night I was watching a repetion of U2's last concert, the one with the camera in Bono's shades.
Anyway, I was watching Adam Clayton playing and it looks that he makes very small movements with his fingers, yet he gets that "mmmppph" kind of sound, with infinite sustain.
I'm not sure if my eye is not catching the movement, if it is the bass, or what.
Does he have tons of compression in it?
What do you think is the key to that sound, which eq scheme will you use?
What about bass action? Strings? Does it have anything to do?
Lastly, any advice on the relationship of the bass with the drums and guitar (eq-wise, arrangement-wise, or other)?

I've been reading this bbs since midyear and it's been wonderful, everybody is so helpful and nice.
Thanks in advance for your help
Cheers, Andrés
 
i AM pretty sure that you might not be hearing what his finers are doing. i saw u2 a few times and always fond it amazing how they could all stop playing and the edges guitar played ITSELF and had riffs pumping out the PA. absoutely phenomanal that self playing guitar. wouldn't be surprised if the bassist plays to a tape.

jake
 
Could it be that after 20+ years of playing live he just knows what he's doing?

I had a housemate who was an incredible bassist, and he would give me lessons once in a while (I'm a guitarist). Anyway, he also moved his fingers very little, yet got a huge sound. He would always try to correct me when I played, because I move a lot of my hand. It didn't sound right, and it hurt like hell after playing for a little while. Anyway, acc. to my housemate, with the proper technique, only your fingers move, and the angle of the pluck is such that the finger comes to a dead stop on the next string down. It's a kind of follow through motion that not only makes the note sound cleaner, but it forces you to get a little more of the finger on the string, and thus produces a less plucky, rounder, more even tone.

I'm sure that the bassist for U2 also uses a lot of compression and some very nice gear, but there's a lot to be said for good technique too.

P.S. anyone who think the Edge is faking it is insane. Yeah, there's a lot of sound trailing after everything he does, last time I saw them, he had at least 30 pedals in his setup, and probably a quarter of them were delays, but he's playing the whole show. I've seen him flub enough notes and change enough parts to understand that.

What's with all the Edge bashing lately? It's sad to see someone who's done so much for guitar get so much disrespect.
 
I bet Adam Clayton knows what he's doing... but I don't, that's why I am asking! :-)

the Ampeg recommendation is a good one. But that also has to do with compression, the way valves compress the sound of the bass.

Charger: that plucking angle thing is very interesting. Anybody know more about the technique to get that sound? Action height?

aaah... I don't care if they are faking or not, that's not the point. Even if they are phonies I still love the sound. It's all that counts to me. Although BTW I don't think they fake, and that The Edge is a great player. But please don't make this a fake/not fake thread. I really want to know more about that kind of sound.

Cheers, Andrés
 
Like I said, I've been there for their sound-check.

When Bono was strumming his acoustic, his hands would stop moving and the acoustic guitar part kept playing.
There were also pre-recorded percussion parts, and the Edge had some pre-recorded guitar parts that played over what he was playing "live". I don't remember any of the bass parts being pre-recorded, though some of them might have been.

Despite the pre-recorded music though, Bono DOES sing "live".
That I'm sure of, since I was standing about 25 feet away from him during their performance.
 
RE: Adam Clayton gear.

According to his interviews in bass player mag he switched to ASHDOWN bass amps a couple of years ago. It is tube and it is expensive. The sound going to the boards live used a combo of DI and mic.

Cordura,
If the details of the gear are real important to ya I can try to look the interview up or you can look for it at Bassplayer.com.

Regaurding the "soft touch" or slight of hand fingering I have found that the best tone uses a very soft touch and gets the volume and punch from the amp. I had to relearn to play after using underpowered bass amps and competing with Fender Twins. Althouhg many metal players swear by a heavy hand the jazz players I admire for tone use the soft touch with a big amp.
 
cordura21,
Though I can't give an answer to your question, go to the link below to see Adam's definative set-up:

http://www.u2sound.de/

The images/pictures don't seem to be working at the moment. Go to setup and then to Adam and you've got a list og basses, amps, effects and else.

If you can't see them I'll copy and paste what you need onto this thread.
 
Kristof1,

I checked the link out but the most recent update was 1985.

I am pretty confident Adam switched to Ashdown Amps in 1999 or 2000. I KNOW he is endorsing them wich doesn't guarantee that he actualy uses them but I am pretty sure the set in Bassplayer Mag this year said Ashdown.
 
Okay here is the scoop from Bassplayer December 2000 page 56.

POP recording rig: 2 70's Jazz basses and a Les Paul Recording bass;

Mic
> Countryman DI > Teletronix LA-2A (compressor) > Ashdown 800 head > Ashdown 1510 Cab mic'd with Neuman U-67.
DI
> Coutryman DI > Summit TLA-100 > Neve desk > Otari Digital Radar II recorder.



ALL That You Can't Leave Behind (or all we could never afford)

Auserwald custom bass and two P-bassses;

> Demeter DI > dbx 160 A Comp / and or dbx 160 XT Comp > custom Bradshaw switcher for effects (including Mu-Tron, Tech 21 Sans Amp, dbx Sub, Korg G5, OD and Alesis Quadraverb)
> another Demeter DI (FX) > B.S.S. Crossover which split signal to low, mids and highs and three seperate channels of input to the board but no mic'd signal this time.

The diagram for this second setup is rather strange but if you really want the details look for a copy of the mag or order a back issue.

P.S. the Ashdown website if interested www.ashdownnmusic.co.uk.
 
thanks for the info. I saw that german site a couple of months ago. There is also a group in yahoo that has very detailed info about their sound, you should check it at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/u2sound/

I tried to use soft touch with big gain, but the problem is that there is a lot of string noise with that. Maybe I should try cut highs a lot. Even so there is that meaty part of his tone, like the "m" in "mmmmphh". I don't know if I make myself clear.
Cheers, Andrés
 
about soft touch: s the PA important at all? I mean, as you said in ATYCLB, he didn't even use a PA (btw, I liked his POP tone better, but I know there are lots of subs there).

Correct my reasoning, but I always thought soft touch = soft signal = big noise. Not that I dislike this, on the contrary, I loved his tone on "with or without you" and it has plenty of rattle.

What I could never solve is how to cope with string and finger noise. You don't hear that on his recordings. Or is it that he can, even with his soft touch, get a high signal? Or is it that it is not a soft touch and I am seeing the wrong thing? Maybe it's all eq.

I always thought that his tone has to do with lack of dynamics, hence the big and meaty sustain in the notes. But whenever I do this compression I end with an unusable and noisy sound.

In live situations, on the other hand, having a big tube amp seems to be the way.

Keep the good advice coming, cheers!
 
Condura21,

The signal chains I listed were used for the recordings. The bass live would have to go through the PA for the size of venues they play.

RE: noise with th soft touch...Yes that is an issue but the solution involves;

1. Good shielding / shielded pickups. With your hands muting the strings you should have little or no noise with a good (but usually expensive) amp.

2. Good string muting technique using a combination of both (fretting and plucking) hands.
This is probably more difficult to develop than an arsenal hot licks or exotic scales.

Anytime you are between songs keep all strings muted with a hand...just enough pressure to keep the strings from vibrating on their own but not enough to press them against the frets. Theoretically any time any individual string that is not being played while one or more other string are intentionally vibrating to produce the desired note(s) they should be muted too. This should be practiced while working on scales and learning parts off recorded music etc.

I love some good agressive (The Clash etc.) style music with all kinds of buzzing in the background for that style of music but the the players I really admire are the Tone "gods" with that clean well articulated bass line and the piano string like tone.

I can't explain the physics of it but there definitaly seems to be a point of maximum string excursion that when passed with too hard of a string pluck kills the sustain and causes overtones that are destructive to the fundimental frequency. Try turning you amp level low and hit the strings harder than usual to compensate. Then turn up your master gain (not the preamp gain) and play very softly while slowly increasing the strength of your fingering and listen for the "sweet spot" where the string just "sings". If you use this live you have to be carefull not to revert back to hitting hard or the sound man will on your case he he he.

Try it out and let me know what you think.

And remember when the bass stops playing the band goes home....if not at least the dance floor gets real lonely.



:p
 
Scooter B:

what I meant about the PA is that they didn't used it as an instrument in the recording, they just got the signal from the bass without the coloration of the head and the speaker. So that tells me that they don't need it to get that sound, it comes just from the bass and the signal chain. Is my reasoning correct, what do you think? I remember listening to Roxy Music's "Love is the drug", and that tone seems to be a product of the speaker and the amp, on the other hand.

My bass has a nice shielding and it doesn't make any bad grounding noise, It's very quiet, it has Seymou Duncan active pickups, the ones with two switches on the (which btw I never knew what they did, technically speaking).

The noise I refer is finger noise. I always have a lot of it compared to the tone of the bass. Sometimes I also get fret noise, but I don't want to set my action high again. I like it low. But to make it more grahic, it's like a metallic, hollow tone, like something it's missing in the middle.

Speaking of the Clash, I really loved them too. And you have a good example there also. If you hear "The magnificent seven" of "Guns of Brixton" the bass tone is so round, fat and nice. But if you had the chance of hearing a live show(I could hear listen to some recordings), Paul has that "paw, paw" sound, almost like a guitar, that sounds pretty bad to me. Not sustain, no meat, ugly. Anyway, I really like them, great songs.

About the experiment you suggested, I did it playing with the guys. It gave me some interesting results, I am trying variations. I started playing low. At the beginning was bad, but then it started to fit in, is like the amps in my fingers started to works :-).

What do you think about gain setting? Should it be high or low? I am using it high, cause I reason that in this way I will get compression. But maybe I am wrong.

What really annoys me about the envelope of the tone I am getting is that it goes lower in volume very fast and it doesn't keep sustain. Maybe the pickups are very close and kills it, maybe it's too much for a japanese jazz bass (what the hell, it's my baby and I love it!).

Cheers, ANDRES
 
It's the player---

As a bass player since the '60's---yeah, I'm an "old guy"--the equipment that really counts are:

1) Technique
2) The Bass--(and string condition and selection!).

The amplification can only interfere if it is inadequate or of poor quality.

AS far as Adam Clayton is concerned: just goes to show you how well good taste and simple eighth notes work!

Yes--there are many techniques that alter sound. These include left hand and right hand DAMPING (e.g., lifting the left fingers slightly to "ghost" notes; placing the right palm slightly on the strings when picking). Also, consider where you strike the string with your fingers(ironically, go up the neck toward the "bass" pickup and you get a bassier, whoompier sound, go down toward the bridge or bass pickup, you get a more "treble", sharper sound).

Also, altering the angle of attack of the righthand fingers changes the engagement of the finger to the string--experiment and listen closely. Using Index and middle finger---just "walk" and angle the wrist. Square up and use "more MEAT" from the fingers and you will get a more legato, bassy sound.

Also--string selection: these days many are going back to flatwounds with their Fender Jazz basses--very cool, nutlike sound. Roundwounds give you a grittier, sproingier sound. You will have to change strings a bit more often, in my opinion.

The amp companies would have you believe that you have to spend zillions and get a damn hernia carrying their stuff around--forget it!!! I am too old for that---now, if you want to spend some dough, wait on line for a Walter Woods amp (weighs maybe 7 lbs soaking wet and has POWER) and a small Euphonics, Acme or Epifani cabinet. Now you're talking!

Just for reference:

A master of left hand damping technique is Francis Rocco Prestia of the old Tower of Power.

Joe Osborne, Carol Kaye--these two were great "pickers"---

Keep it simple--one well struck note is worth more than all that busy, hot junk that clutters up the low frequencies. Record yourself playing--

Sorry for the rant--like Dennis Miller, it's only my opinion--I could be wrong.

Bob
 
Jeez--I AM getting old.....of course if you move up the neck with your right hand plucking it is bassier---down to the TREBLE pickup, it is more treble. The irony is between MY ears!
 
Condura21,

RE: the PA maybe its just the semantics but when I see PA I think literally and micing bass amp I also took more literally; so I assumed by PA you meant in concert / live application.

On the compression and gain issue I believe it depends on your amp or signal chain and again I am assuming you are talking about the the sound coming out of the amp not the mic'd sound for a recording.

I generally prefer the preamp gain as low as possble while still getting a bright punchy sound and while still keeping it clean for starters and then adjust the overall gain as needed. Higher preamp levels typically cause some distortion (and tube saturation for tube preamps) and sometimes this distortion is desirable for some types of music but it is not my preference unless a certain song requires it.

The compressor should react to the level it is being fed (obviously); if the compressor is between the preamp and power amp in your signal chain then yes a higher preamp level will cause the compressor to kick in more often BUT the threshold setting is really what determines when the compressor kicks in. Most bass amps with built in compression that I have seen are not very adjustable they are designed to be used as limiters to prevent damage to the electronics or the speaker more than they are used to improve the sound.
Peavey is bad about this one because it does not really fuction as a true compressor but they still call it a compressor for marketing. Some of the Trace Elliot bass amps have true compressors and some of their product line features two compressors with an adjustable crossover to adjust compression for highs and lows seperately. If you want the compressor kicking in more I would recomend getting the tone as close to "perfect" for you before enabling the compressor and then adjust the threshold to trigger where you want it to. Also noise gates can help alot with recording. I hate my Alesis 3660 compressor for compression but I always use the noise gates for my guitar and bass DI as recording is so unforgiving compared to live.

On the lack of sustain issue the pickup height may be an issue in relation to string height but this is usually not a problem with active pickups. Passive pickups usually require a stronger magnet and if set too close to the strings can kill sustain in an instant as the magnet pulls the string toward it and to the center of the pole thus dampening string vibration.

The two switches are probaly a coil tap and a series switch. Most Seymore Duncan humbucking pickups can be wired with swithces to alternate the two coils out of phase or in phase. Out of phase is the standard humbucking wiring. In phase is like having two single coils wired in series wich changes the tone. A coil tap switches to a single single-coil pick up I believe if I remeber correctly but I could be wrong on that one. The other possibility is with active EQ some basses come with preset EQ switches the most popular one seems to be a "Slap Contour "switch wich scoops (cuts) the midrange wich is a popular EQ setting for slap bass. This can be very handy if you alternate a fingerstyle technique and switch to slap for some songs. I believe alot of recent Music Man basses have this option.

And I agree with Bodoc 100% on the player and all the subtle finger variations possible. You can pick up any bass and amp combo your favorite player uses the second he or she puts it down..... but no one is going to sound the same unless your technique is exactly the same and even then it will only be close to the same tone.

I was a big U2 fan early for the first 5 or so albums Boy up to Joshua Tree not specifically because of Adam Clayton but because of the passion and group writing approach. This approach is what I personally feel is the ultimate level of creative musical expression....creating something that is bigger than any one member could orchestrate if they had all the controll. My personal tastes changed the polar opposite it seems of where U-2 went after that musically and "image" or spiritual context of the music but I still have great respect for them. I suppose I am telling you this to say that Adam Clayton is not one of my influences per say reguarding tone or style but he has demonstrated great maturity in providing the basic support needed so Edge, Bono and Larry can go out on that limb creatively.

If you are going specically for something like Adams tone I am not that familiar with his recent stuff I was just relating a revelation I discovered in my search for the ultimate bass tones and seemed to have alot of it confirmed in interviews with the players I admire the most. Just thought I would throw that out there so you can know where I am coming from on the tone development. I may be leading you in the wrong direction for what you want but experimentation is where inspiration comes from so experiment away.
 
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