Theory Question

Wireneck

New member
I have been playing about 10 years now. I am self taught and have managed to get by ok since I have a somewhat descent ear. I've been jamming with this other guitarist for the past 3-4 months who is an incredible player. He is really great at improv and is capable of bringing the shred but has great taste as a player (rare haha). We have been working on some songs with the focus being irregular key changes and exotic harmonies among other things.
His approach to playing has in a way inspired me to try and actually understand "why" the things I am playing works. I have never been great at improv so I am trying to work on that as well.
So here goes my simple question.......We were just screwing around on this clean acoustic piece and trading licks. One section goes back and forth between an E-minor and a C- minor chord. Simple enough right? Typically I would just noodle around untill i found something that I liked and not worry about what notes im playing or what scale it is but lately i've been trying to approach this by thinking a little more.
So at the very basic level I could play within the E-minor and then the C-minor scale (or so my friend tells me, "you need to modulate with the key"). When he does it, it flows and never breaks up and hes basically in one position on the fretboard but when I try and approach it this way it sucks big time. Is there some rule about transitional notes when modulating keys?
And lastly is there a website that list out the different positions for say something like E minor scale?
I should probably just quit thinking and play but thats what I always say and I never learn this stuff. I really want to understand it but for some reason its like rocket science to me. And Yes I could ask my friend but I am almost too embarassed to show him how clueless I really am. Thanks in advance
 
The E on the 5th (A) string is only one string and one fret away from the C on the 6th (E) string. Find the scale pattern for natural minor scales starting on the E and A strings, and you can just switch between the two without much hand movement. I'm feeling kinda lazy so I'm not gonna write out these patterns myself, but you can find them at a bunch of sites, just google it. Sorry if I didn't help any, I don't know exactly what level you're at. Good luck!
 
I've found Wholenote.com to be a great resource.

Really cool site. The scale finder looks like its going to be a great resource. I can't get the audio to work for some reason though?

Iron Flippy

Thanks for the advice. This is the exact position I have been playing in for this particular thing. Would the natural minor scale be called something else? Im looking at the scale finder on www.wholenote.com and there are like 10 billion scales but im not seeing the reg old minor scale. For ex....Ionian is the Major scale (correct?) . I promise im not as retarded as I sound haha, you can check out some of my playing here www.myspace.com/theburdenofexistence
 
I think i just answered my own question. Is Aeolian the same as the regular Minor scale? I think thats the basic pattern I use for minor keys?
 
Yes the Aeolian mode and Minor Scale are the same. As far as that E minor / C minor progression, maybe your friend uses a harmonic minor scale to bridge the gap between C minor and E minor (they only share 3 notes).

I know some theory but it's all kinda cloudy to me too, especially when it comes to applying it in music.
 
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Circle of 5ths

Wireneck!

Isn't theory cool? Travisin FL was correct, the Aeolian mode and the Minor scale are the same. Once you understand the relationship between keys and their relative minors, chord progressions will be the futherest thing from your mind.
However, in your case, it's the relationship between the Minors and their relative majors. The sharps and flats in MINOR KEY SIGNATURES produce NATURAL MINOR SCALES. ("he flows and never breaks up")
The accidentals used to produce HARMONIC and MELODIC MINOR SCALES are not found in the MINOR KEY SIGNATURE, but rather next to the pitches as needed in the music. My suggestion is to memorize the cirlce of 5ths.
Keep jamming!
 
tamias said:
the Aeolian mode and the Minor scale are the same.



OK, let’s nip this right in the bud. NO they are not.

The Aeolian mode is a mode. A minor key is tonal. When using a minor key, you have the V7. The V7-i defines the key. When using any mode, you do not have that relationship. Modal cadences are almost always step wise. Minor key cadences are usually V7-i cadences, or even (sometimes) vii7(flat 5)-i7 for the half-step dominate movement. In either case, the cadence movement pretty much always includes a “non-diatonic” chord. A move to a relative minor is not at all the same as a move to the aeolian mode.

Harmonic and Melodic minors are imaginary constructs. No one ever writes parts in "harmonic minor" or "melodic minor." They are theoretical constructs which are used to explain the "typical" motion of the minor key pieces in the Bach cannon. Which of course has nothing to do with what Bach was thinking; he was just making it sound good.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Oh yean, and as far as moving between keys, you will get that fluidity only one way. Practice. Sure, you want to learn all that you can about harmony and melodic theory, but none of that will in and of itself help you. You need to practice it. What I would focus on is various modal forms, and on arpeggios. Most guitar players who have any experience with playing blues have an easier time learning this stuff by using pentatonic scales, but you don't need to use them in the obvious ways. For instance, if you play a minor pentatonic scale one step up from the root or the chord, it implies a dorian mode with the natural 9 and 13 and the 11. It doesn't have the 3 or 7 in it, but you can really count on those being in there from the guy comping. Other pentatonic scales give you other relationships. Do the math to figure it out, if you want.

Of course, in the end, what you want is to learn all of this stuff, and then forget it when you are actually playing. You want all of this to simply flow from your ears and through your hands. But of course, that takes a lifetime of practice. If you’re really lucky, a few times a night it will just flow, but it takes a long time before you get to the point where you are doing it most of the time.

But really, just keep practicing.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
I can't help too much on theory, but if I read it right, your friend said to modulate (change?) scales with keys. Even though you are changing chords from Em to Cm, the key of the song probably doesn't change. So my first step here (early on) would be to stay with the same scale for the whole song, unless there is a real key change. As you pick up more about scales and working them into the music, I bet you run into ways to vary things within the scale....

Also, check the Music Theory board on www.guitar.com. You may find some interesting threads if you search for "improvising."
 
Wireneck....for all of your practical purposes....the Aeolian mode IS most definitely considered the "natural" minor scale. I really don't think you need to think about it much further than that. It is still in fact a mode, which along with Dorian and Phrygian will work in a minor key depending on the chord progression. I know people will argue about it but it still works like that simply stated. To modulate the key with those two chords, focus on the notes the two scales would have in common. And learn to play the appropriate scales in the same positions so you can reach any note you want easily. However, I would probably approach it as though I was playing in E minor while only embellishing with some notes specific to C minor occasionaly. I would say the most important thing is to be able to play the right notes for a given key without having to move to a certain "root" position. Such as playing in C minor effortlessly from the seventh or twelvth positions. Have fun!
 
First look at the notes in the chords.

E-G-B
C-Eb-G

Looks like an e-minor to e-harmonic minor to me.

Start off by playing in e-minor and simply sharpen the D in the scale for the c-minor chord where necessary. The D natural will work better over the C minor chord if it is in a higher register.

There are many ways to play over any combination of chords - but this is a decent enough place to start for these two.
 
onlyfingers said:
I can't help too much on theory, but if I read it right, your friend said to modulate (change?) scales with keys. Even though you are changing chords from Em to Cm, the key of the song probably doesn't change.

In this case, this isn't correct. Em and Cm do not belong to the same keys (Em belongs with sharp keys and Cm belongs with flat keys), so there definitely is a key change.

codmate said:
First look at the notes in the chords.

E-G-B
C-Eb-G

Looks like an e-minor to e-harmonic minor to me.

Start off by playing in e-minor and simply sharpen the D in the scale for the c-minor chord where necessary. The D natural will work better over the C minor chord if it is in a higher register.

There are many ways to play over any combination of chords - but this is a decent enough place to start for these two.

While Codmate is correct in saying there are many different ways of playing over different chords, this probably isn't your best option.

Codmate, if you spell out the scales you suggested, you'll get this:

E natural minor (over Em): E-F#-G-A-B-C-D

then you said E harmonic minor (over Cm): E-F#-G-A-B-C-D#

This gives you an F# note over a Cm chord, which, although certainly an option, may not be what he has in mind for that chord. Also, this scale lacks the note D, which is an important color tone (the 9th) in Cm.


Wireneck,

Yes there are different scales you could use, but it basically boils down to probably using some type of E minor scale over the Em chord and some type of C minor scale over the Cm chord. There are some scales that might seem to smooth the transition a little bit.

For instance, E Dorian contains a C#, so if "smooth" is what you're going for, I don't think that would be the best option. That would tend to highlight the key change more than smooth over it.

In my opinion, the smoothest choice would probably be the E natural minor scale (E Aeolian) over the Em chord and then C melodic minor over the Cm chord. C melodic minor is C-D-Eb-F-G-A-B-C. This would give you 5 common tones between the scales.
 
famous beagle said:
This gives you an F# note over a Cm chord, which, although certainly an option, may not be what he has in mind for that chord.

Funny, I was going to suggest banging away on F# and Eb to force the issue :rolleyes: :D
 
famous beagle said:
In this case, this isn't correct. Em and Cm do not belong to the same keys (Em belongs with sharp keys and Cm belongs with flat keys), so there definitely is a key change.



While Codmate is correct in saying there are many different ways of playing over different chords, this probably isn't your best option.

Codmate, if you spell out the scales you suggested, you'll get this:

E natural minor (over Em): E-F#-G-A-B-C-D

then you said E harmonic minor (over Cm): E-F#-G-A-B-C-D#

This gives you an F# note over a Cm chord, which, although certainly an option, may not be what he has in mind for that chord. Also, this scale lacks the note D, which is an important color tone (the 9th) in Cm.


Wireneck,

Yes there are different scales you could use, but it basically boils down to probably using some type of E minor scale over the Em chord and some type of C minor scale over the Cm chord. There are some scales that might seem to smooth the transition a little bit.

For instance, E Dorian contains a C#, so if "smooth" is what you're going for, I don't think that would be the best option. That would tend to highlight the key change more than smooth over it.

In my opinion, the smoothest choice would probably be the E natural minor scale (E Aeolian) over the Em chord and then C melodic minor over the Cm chord. C melodic minor is C-D-Eb-F-G-A-B-C. This would give you 5 common tones between the scales.


That would work equally well - but don't melodic minors have different sharps and flats depending on whether you are going up or down the scale?

I seem to recall from my classical days that on the way up you sharpen the 7th and flatten it on the way down - I think that may go for the 6th too.

Personally I see keeping the F# in as a great opportunity to do little runs starting on F# (which will sound like an accidental in this context) with the root of the C chord as a diminished fifth.

I like harsh clashy stuff though, so maybe that's just me.

The difference between these approaches is mostly whether you want to sharpen the D or flatten the E. I don't think either is better - and they aren't even mutually exclusive. You could get some nice chromatisicm going by playing E over the Em chord and then sliding Eb-D-Eb when the C chord kicks in.

Lots of scope for movement there.
 
metalhead28 said:
Wireneck....for all of your practical purposes....the Aeolian mode IS most definitely considered the "natural" minor scale. I really don't think you need to think about it much further than that. It is still in fact a mode, which along with Dorian and Phrygian will work in a minor key depending on the chord progression. I know people will argue about it but it still works like that simply stated. To modulate the key with those two chords, focus on the notes the two scales would have in common. And learn to play the appropriate scales in the same positions so you can reach any note you want easily. However, I would probably approach it as though I was playing in E minor while only embellishing with some notes specific to C minor occasionaly. I would say the most important thing is to be able to play the right notes for a given key without having to move to a certain "root" position. Such as playing in C minor effortlessly from the seventh or twelvth positions. Have fun!

The "natural" minor scale is A minor key specific is'nt it? It's the only key with no accidentals therefore called the "natural" minor scale. same with the "natural" (major) scale, which is specific to C.
 
TravisinFlorida said:
The "natural" minor scale is A minor key specific is'nt it? It's the only key with no accidentals therefore called the "natural" minor scale. same with the "natural" (major) scale, which is specific to C.

No, it's not specific to A minor. Any minor scale with degrees 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7 is a natural minor scale, named after whatever note it starts on.

I think the name "natural minor" was given to distinguish it when compared to the harmonic minor or natural minor.


Codmate: The "classical" spelling of the melodic minor is 1-2-b3-4-5-6-7 on the way up, and the same as the natural minor on the way down. But for improvisational purposes, the name "melodic minor" applies to the ascending form of the scale.

The harmonic minor is 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-7 both ways.
 
I believe the term "natural minor" came about because it is the set of notes that occur at the relative minor of a major key. For example, in the key of A minor (relative minor to C major), the notes that map to the key signature are the "natural minor" scale. But as Light observed, in tonal music, the natural minor is typically not used in a piece of minor tonality because it doesn't "work." In order to sound "right," accidentals are typically used in a certain way to strengthen cadences, which after being established by common practice, became codified as the "melodic minor" and "harmonic minor."
 
If you want to really get down to brass tacks, compare the two scales. First, if you assume natural minor for both, you'd get:

E...F#..G...A...B...C...D...E
C.. D...Eb..F....G..Ab..Bb..C

If Emi is the "tonic" of the section, then try comparing the two scales as if they begin on E:

E...F#..G...A...B...C...D...E
Eb..F....G...Ab.Bb..C...D...Eb

When you look at it this way, you can see that the two scales have three common tones: G, C, and D. Of the three, the strongest is the G, since it functions as the third of the Emi and the 5th of the Cmi - both chord tones, which makes this note a good choice for either.

Next, you might want to look for other minor scale options for one of the chords to see if it produces more shared common tones (Again, without more info on the piece, which chord functions as "tonic" of the section, the melody, etc., this is all conjecture).

For instance, if you keep the E as natural minor and change the Cmi scale to a Dorian (Natural minor with a raised 6th), then you'd get:

E...F#..G...A...B...C...D...E
Eb..F....G...A..Bb..C...D...Eb

which adds the "A" as an extra common tone.

Another thing to try is to focus on the notes that really NEED to change from chord to chord, like the E-->Eb and the B-->Bb. Nailing these on strong beats can really help make you sound like you are "centered" in the changes. HTH.
 
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