Theory Question

[famous beagle]

I believe the term "natural minor" came about because it is the set of notes that occur at the relative minor of a major key. For example, in the key of A minor (relative minor to C major), the notes that map to the key signature are the "natural minor" scale. But as Light observed, in tonal music, the natural minor is typically not used in a piece of minor tonality because it doesn't "work." In order to sound "right," accidentals are typically used in a certain way to strengthen cadences, which after being established by common practice, became codified as the "melodic minor" and "harmonic minor."

While this is true in most classical music, especially from the Baroque and Classical periods, it's not nearly as much the rule when it comes to modern pop music. There are many songs in A minor, for example, that don't contain an E major chord.

U2's "Staring at the Sun" is a perfect example. The progression in the verse is Am-G-F-Em. It certainly "works."

To say the natural minor scale doesn't "work" isn't really correct. It's more correct to say it doesn't work all the time. When the v chord is made into a major V chord, then obviously the harmonic minor scale is a logical choice. Or sometimes that V is preceded with a major IV, which usually results in melodic minor. However, for the other diatonic chords within a minor key, the natural minor scale would make the most sense (even in a classical setting).

There are also many songs in a minor key that don't use a V chord at all--major or minor. How many songs have made use of the i-bVI-bVII progression (ex, Am-F-G)? Lots. In those songs, the natural minor scale (or Aeolian mode) is the obvious choice.

 

[Wireneck]

Thanks for all of the responses guys. Im not ignoring this thread just trying to take it all in and pick apart what pieces I can understand. Alot of this is greek to me......

"For instance, E Dorian contains a C#, so if "smooth" is what you're going for, I don't think that would be the best option. That would tend to highlight the key change more than smooth over it."

Hmmm this is what I have been using. I think you said this alot better than me, when I say it doesn't sound smooth , I mean it highlights the key change too much. I will give the E natural minor a try.

 

[Light]

While this is true in most classical music, especially from the Baroque and Classical periods, it's not nearly as much the rule when it comes to modern pop music. There are many songs in A minor, for example, that don't contain an E major chord.

U2's "Staring at the Sun" is a perfect example. The progression in the verse is Am-G-F-Em. It certainly "works."

To say the natural minor scale doesn't "work" isn't really correct. It's more correct to say it doesn't work all the time. When the v chord is made into a major V chord, then obviously the harmonic minor scale is a logical choice. Or sometimes that V is preceded with a major IV, which usually results in melodic minor. However, for the other diatonic chords within a minor key, the natural minor scale would make the most sense (even in a classical setting).

There are also many songs in a minor key that don't use a V chord at all--major or minor. How many songs have made use of the i-bVI-bVII progression (ex, Am-F-G)? Lots. In those songs, the natural minor scale (or Aeolian mode) is the obvious choice.

Those examples are MODAL, not TONAL, which is to say they are in A aeolian, and NOT in A minor. Without dominant motion - either V7-i or vii7(flat 5)-i - you don't have tonal harmony. That cadence movement is the defining feature of tonal harmony. There is no "key" of natural minor, or of "harmonic" or "melodic" minor. Those are scales with only a passing relevance to music. There is A aeolian, or there is A minor. But look at your examples. They have basically step wise motion, which is the hallmark of most modal harmony.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[dragonworks]

find where inversions of e minor and c minor chords are closest to one another
on the guitar neck such as the c minor on the third fret as a barred a minor chord, and the open d minor move up two frets to make an e minor cord, etc.
there you will find it easiest to improv leads and modulate. Once you know your inversions it gets easier.

 

[XLR]

Wireneck, my own approach to this is a very simple one that combines training the ear with training the fingers... you just play scales of various types while singing the scale step numbers (and sometimes perhaps the pitch letter names). Then you play them in a variety of positions on the fretboard to extend the technical possibilities. I mean, if you get the scale types in your ear and hands, all the notation and terminology issues are secondary - they're just communication about music, and shouldn't dictate or interfere with the music itself. The list of scales I do is pretty long, so I won't include it here, but there are many ways to approach this and the best ones IMO are EAR based with terminology loosely attached, not terminology based.

It's amazing, the crap that starts getting thrown any time musicians talk about how to name things!

Tim

 

[mshilarious]

Those examples are MODAL, not TONAL, which is to say they are in A aeolian, and NOT in A minor. Without dominant motion - either V7-i or vii7(flat 5)-i - you don't have tonal harmony.

That is true inasmuch as it is limited to harmonic tonality. I thought the initial discussion was concerned with melodic tonality, which seems more relevant in the postmodern era and certainly in popular music, which isn't terribly concerned with establishing tonality through the strength of its cadences.

 

[famous beagle]

Those examples are MODAL, not TONAL, which is to say they are in A aeolian, and NOT in A minor. Without dominant motion - either V7-i or vii7(flat 5)-i - you don't have tonal harmony. That cadence movement is the defining feature of tonal harmony. There is no "key" of natural minor, or of "harmonic" or "melodic" minor. Those are scales with only a passing relevance to music. There is A aeolian, or there is A minor. But look at your examples. They have basically step wise motion, which is the hallmark of most modal harmony.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

I never made the distinction between MODAL and TONAL. But since you brought it up, I'd have to say that the notion of a distinction is completely pointless at this point in time.

Who cares if you have a V7-I cadence? You can still tell what key the song is in. I don't believe the definition of tonal music rests with the presence of a V-I cadence. Many "tonal" songs don't have V chords at all. Does that mean they're "modal?" Of course not. That's just a silly pedantic label.

What about blues? Is a blues in C not really in the "key of C" because it actually uses a dominant chord as the I chord? That's ridiculous.

Yes, long ago, there used to be pieces based strictly on modes, but nowadays, those modes have worked their way into our "tonal" music.

Besides, many, many songs (I would say most) don't stick to one mode or scale throughout anyway. They freely combine "modal" and "tonal" approaches. It's silly to try to distinguish between something like that.

Take "Hotel California" for instance:

Bm (i) - F# (V) - A (bVII) - E (IV) - G (bVII) - D (bIII) - Em (iv) - F# (V)

This piece is in the "key" of B minor. It contains the strong V-i cadence. However, it also contains a secondary dominant (E), which can be thought of as V of bVII if you want to get theoretical about it. But for the purpose of soloing over changes (the topic of this post), most people would say, "Ok, over the E, you can play B Dorian," because the major IV in a minor key is the characterstic Dorian sound.

That's all I'm saying. And that's what this post is about.

 

[famous beagle]

OK, let’s nip this right in the bud. NO they are not.

The Aeolian mode is a mode. A minor key is tonal. When using a minor key, you have the V7. The V7-i defines the key. When using any mode, you do not have that relationship. Modal cadences are almost always step wise. Minor key cadences are usually V7-i cadences, or even (sometimes) vii7(flat 5)-i7 for the half-step dominate movement. In either case, the cadence movement pretty much always includes a “non-diatonic” chord. A move to a relative minor is not at all the same as a move to the aeolian mode.

Harmonic and Melodic minors are imaginary constructs. No one ever writes parts in "harmonic minor" or "melodic minor." They are theoretical constructs which are used to explain the "typical" motion of the minor key pieces in the Bach cannon. Which of course has nothing to do with what Bach was thinking; he was just making it sound good.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

This is ridiculous. So are you saying that you'll never have a song that will have both a minor v and a major V?

And actually, the melodic minor scale began because once composers started using the harmonic minor scale, singers found the augmented 2nd interval between the b6 and 7 degrees difficult to sing, so they began raising the 6th on the way up as well.

Regardless, as I said, at this point the melodic minor scale is hardly an "imaginary construct." It is legitimately used in jazz improvisation constantly, and yes you can certainly compose music based on the melodic minor scale.

 

[onlyfingers]

Here are some examples from another board:

"....Plunging into a C chord in the middle of the key of E was a popular "wake up" technique (Hendrix "Hey Joe", "Voodoo Chile", Who "I Can See For Miles", "See Me Feel Me")...."

From www.guitar.com, >discussion>Music Theory

 

[metalhead28]

If you want to really get down to brass tacks, compare the two scales. First, if you assume natural minor for both, you'd get:

E...F#..G...A...B...C...D...E
C.. D...Eb..F....G..Ab..Bb..C

If Emi is the "tonic" of the section, then try comparing the two scales as if they begin on E:

E...F#..G...A...B...C...D...E
Eb..F....G...Ab.Bb..C...D...Eb

When you look at it this way, you can see that the two scales have three common tones: G, C, and D. Of the three, the strongest is the G, since it functions as the third of the Emi and the 5th of the Cmi - both chord tones, which makes this note a good choice for either.

Next, you might want to look for other minor scale options for one of the chords to see if it produces more shared common tones (Again, without more info on the piece, which chord functions as "tonic" of the section, the melody, etc., this is all conjecture).

For instance, if you keep the E as natural minor and change the Cmi scale to a Dorian (Natural minor with a raised 6th), then you'd get:

E...F#..G...A...B...C...D...E
Eb..F....G...A..Bb..C...D...Eb

which adds the "A" as an extra common tone.

Another thing to try is to focus on the notes that really NEED to change from chord to chord, like the E-->Eb and the B-->Bb. Nailing these on strong beats can really help make you sound like you are "centered" in the changes. HTH.

I just want to reinforce the above post as it probably has the most relevance to what Wireneck was originally asking without too much bothering about theory history and details that arent going to help out a bit.