Recording guitar at ultra high end studios

S

Superhuman

Shagaholic
Hey All,
I had an argument with a guy recently about recording guitar parts. He basically said that 'true guitarists with a true appreciation of tone and understanding of their instruments' record with their full rig set up effects included - and that you havent a clue about playing or recording if you record dry (straight from amp to mic or DI). My experience has always been that the engineers want dry takes so that you don't have to rerecord everything at the end of a mix if you decide the delay or flanger was too heavy at one section etc. Also, I always thought dry is better for edits and EQ tweaks, plus the studio magic of experimenting with crazy settings etc.
Am I wrong in saying that its preferable to only add some noise supression and compression if needed to the 'dry' signal? (Keeping all other more destructive effects for later.)
I know you can record both but as far as ultra high end studios go, how is it done? Eg Steve Vai or Joe Satriani, would those guys record a bone dry take and work from there or do they arrive to the studio with their rigs finely tuned and record as is?
Interested to hear your opinions!
 
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They probably do both. Record a wet take with dry take aswell to keep for reamping if it's needed.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you record a dry take without the equipment you'll get none of the interaction between the amplifier and the guitar, no?

So surely a 'wet' take is better in that regard isn't it?
 
I meant dry as in straight from guitar to amp to the mic without a whole bunch of effects thrown in. DI is also an option depending on the part etc....
 
I think it depends. If the effect is needed to the guitarist to be able to play the part then the effect could be recorded, or there could be a dry recording with a feed of the effected signal going to the guitarist. Personally, if the effect is integral to the particular sound and feel, and my ability to play the part more naturally, then I just record with the effect. If it's not, then I might put it on afterwards. But it depends on the effect. If it's a wah wah or a strong flanger then I'll record it all. I almost never track with reverb however. Much prefer to put that on afterwards. I don't really apply any rules to it though. Just go with whatever I think is best for the particular piece.
 
Last time I recorded guitar at a studio like the one in question, I recorded both dry and wet.

The amp was mic'd with two mics, and then also used the output of the amp through effects (wah, distortion etc.) to the board on separate channels.

Giving the freedom to keep what you want, mix, pan and delay whichever signal you want.
 
Although I agree that proccessing (time based effects/compression/etc) should be done after the fact, whatever makes the meathead...er... guitar player happy. If they complain that they just can't "feel it" without a massive flange going on, I say knock yourself out. I also try to tell them that if they let me use my rack effects at mix, they'll be more controllable and STEREO, plus I can set up an effect in the monitor mix that's not printing so they CAN feel it. Lots of printed effects does make editing more of a challenge.
 
ShawnAlexander said:
Last time I recorded guitar at a studio like the one in question, I recorded both dry and wet.

The amp was mic'd with two mics, and then also used the output of the amp through effects (wah, distortion etc.) to the board on separate channels.

Giving the freedom to keep what you want, mix, pan and delay whichever signal you want.
Click to expand...

I'm not a high end studio, but this is how I do it all the time. And more often than not, I know I'm not going to keep the wet track. But I need my 'verb & delay to play right. The effects are part of the performance and they greatly affect how I play. "Dry" is a sound in itself, and lend itself to a playing style for me, so if the solo's will be wet in the end, I need to hear it wet when I'm playing to play it right.

So I mic with two mics. One goes dry, one goes wet. The wet is usually processed in stereo (and recorded in stereo) and I only monitor the wet mic in my cans when I'm recording.

So when I'm done I end up with four tracks from the take--the two mics themselves, and the left & right fx tracks from the wet mic. Now I can mix to taste, or completely re-do the fx without retracking.
 
It all depends. Wah and distortion need to be there during the performance. So does a tap delay that is actually poart of the performance.

A chorus, flange or reverb doesn't. With the chorus and flange, you run into the problem of the sweeps not matching up when you double the part. That gives you an extra swimmy-ness that I normally don't want.
 
Looking past issues about the "sound" being needed to make the player feel "comfortable" and play his best, the only time where it's really a good idea to record with effects is when you're talking about any sort of effect that changes the response of the amp.

For example, a tremolo pedal in front of a distorted amp would change the way the amp overdrives, and if you wanted that sound of the gain structure changing, you'd need to record the part with the tremolo pedal in the signal chain. If however you wanted a volume swell effect with no discernable gain change in the guitar signal, you'd want it in the mix.

I'd also include pitch based effects here - say, an octaver, or a Digitech whammy or something, where arguably the effect is part of the performance.

However, unless it's crucual to the player to have it in his signal chain, any time based effects will sound best if they're added in the mix - delays, reverbs, choruses, whatever. You have way more control over FX paramaters and stereo spreads if you simply record dry and add this stuff later on.

Also, ironically your mix will probably sound "clearer" if you wait and record dry. You can do things with panning and EQ on delays and 'verbs so they're not hitting the same frequencies in the same spots on the stereo spectrum which will give you an overall more expansive, clear sounding mix.

I'm not saying your buddy is wrong - everyone who;s saying that getting the artist into a happy place so they'll play their best is right - but all else equal you want to wait so you're not committed to anything in the mix.
 
Superhuman said:
Hey All,
I had an argument with a guy recently about recording guitar parts. He basically said that 'true guitarists with a true appreciation of tone and understanding of their instruments' record with their full rig set up effects included - and that you havent a clue about playing or recording if you record dry (straight from amp to mic or DI). My experience has always been that the engineers want dry takes so that you don't have to rerecord everything at the end of a mix if you decide the delay or flanger was too heavy at one section etc. Also, I always thought dry is better for edits and EQ tweaks, plus the studio magic of experimenting with crazy settings etc.
Am I wrong in saying that its preferable to only add some noise supression and compression if needed to the 'dry' signal? (Keeping all other more destructive effects for later.)
I know you can record both but as far as ultra high end studios go, how is it done? Eg Steve Vai or Joe Satriani, would those guys record a bone dry take and work from there or do they arrive to the studio with their rigs finely tuned and record as is?
Interested to hear your opinions!
Click to expand...

The thing he is really wrong about is in thinking that here is only one way it's done.
 
It totally depends on the situation. Look up how they got Fripp's sound on 'Heroes' for instance.
That's a pretty unique sound/set-up!

For other occasions (like a part that needs an in-time delay) you would add the effect later. Totally horses for courses.
 
Codmate said:
It totally depends on the situation. Look up how they got Fripp's sound on 'Heroes' for instance.
That's a pretty unique sound/set-up!

For other occasions (like a part that needs an in-time delay) you would add the effect later. Totally horses for courses.
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"The Edge" prints his rhythmic delays. I do too, when the delay is an integral part of the actual "part."

Unless someone is going for a specific weirdness or a 50s slapback, all delays shoud be in time. Right?

Peace!

~Shawn
 
eyema_believer said:
"The Edge" prints his rhythmic delays. I do too, when the delay is an integral part of the actual "part."

Unless someone is going for a specific weirdness or a 50s slapback, all delays shoud be in time. Right?

Peace!

~Shawn
Click to expand...

Well - not really. I most often use delay just to create a huge 'epic' sound.
Dave Gilmour's delays are often not in time.

Unless your drummer is playing to a click (as with U2 I suspect), or you start with the guitar part, it's difficult to arrange in-time delays live!
 
Codmate said:
Unless your drummer is playing to a click (as with U2 I suspect), or you start with the guitar part, it's difficult to arrange in-time delays live!
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It's not hard at all, if your delay has a tap-tempo. I always use it, and my drummers are anything but machine-like. ( I say "they" because I play in multiple groups... ) If they rush too much, a little tappity tap is all it takes to get back in the groove. I also have an expression pedal rigged to my delay wet/dry mix, so that I have just the exact amount of the delayed signal that I want. I couldn't live without it now.
 
eyema_believer said:
It's not hard at all, if your delay has a tap-tempo. I always use it, and my drummers are anything but machine-like. ( I say "they" because I play in multiple groups... ) If they rush too much, a little tappity tap is all it takes to get back in the groove. I also have an expression pedal rigged to my delay wet/dry mix, so that I have just the exact amount of the delayed signal that I want. I couldn't live without it now.
Click to expand...

Though, to be fair, it's WAY easier to play to a click track, use a software plug in, and set it to match to the host tempo... ;)
 
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