How important are scales and theory in your guitar playing?

Do you use theory and scales in your guitar playing?


  • Total voters
    110
I've never actually bothered listening to any of Gerg's music...I just assume he's good and knows what he's doing based on random readings on this board. But I do wish more people would understand that folks like Gerg and willis (those who don't bother fucking with theory, but can still be musically intelligent) are a rarity, and not just something that lazy dumbshits can use as an excuse to "keep playing by feel". Few things are more annoying then jamming with some retard, where you can't even communicate the simple concept of "play an F, Bb, C progression". More people should at least bother learning the basics of theory (fuck, I'd be satisfied if they'd just learn the names of the 1st 5 frets!), rather than assuming that everybody will appreciate their oh-so-artistic abilities of "playing by feel" and "just hearing the groove and nailing it". If you can pull it off, great...go rock out. If you only think you can pull it off, and your jamming buddies keep looking at you funny...well, you're one of the majority. Grab a book, spend an hour, and quit sucking.

And also, cock.
 
I know a lot of theory. You can't really play with other people without speaking the language. I don't mean your 3 garage bands. I mean being able to take sit-in gigs or musicals or weddings and other money making ventures.

It is too hard to draw pictures and diagrams so that you'll remember a song. You have to be able to "record" your music on paper or you're going to lose a lot of song ideas to failing memory. If I have to learn 12 anette funicello franky avalon songs for a beach party this weekend, I'm going to write some charts or, if I'm lucky, I'll get handed some :)

But theory definitely gets in the way of soloing and songwriting. I do not play scales or memorize them nor have I every used all the different modes in any musical performance. I basically play lead out of the pentatonic scale, but I can feel/hear all the in between notes that create the aroma of the mode or genre that i am trying to cop.

That is a listening skill. I have listened to lots of cliche music in lots of different genres. So I can play a lick that sounds like it's arabian, or chinese or hawaiian or hasidic. It's not like I could tell you that arabian=mixolidian mode. But I know that a minor second sure does sell it.

But, all that said, I play rockabilly. It's just sped-up blues. It's the simplest guitar music to play, really.
 
Few things are more annoying then jamming with some retard, where you can't even communicate the simple concept of "play an F, Bb, C progression". More people should at least bother learning the basics of theory (fuck, I'd be satisfied if they'd just learn the names of the 1st 5 frets!),

again, that's not knowing your instrument, not a lack of understanding of theory.

But I do wish more people would understand that folks like Gerg and willis (those who don't bother fucking with theory, but can still be musically intelligent) are a rarity, and not just something that lazy dumbshits can use as an excuse to "keep playing by feel".

thanks!
 
i learned to play bass and guitar on my own. i started with guitar when i was about 14. a year later a friend's band needed a bass player so i sold my guitar gear and got bass gear. i was in a couple of bands for the next couple years, and when i was 19, the band i was in got signed to a development deal. they put us on salary and told us to write songs and get better. that band had only been together for 3 months and we only had 7 songs.

i quit my job to play music(and it was impossible to party like i was at the time and do construction). Since i had the time, i decided that i was going to take a couple of intro music classes so i can start at the beginning and learn how to read music and get a better understanding of music. As i was learning how to read music and play the things on the charts, i would memorize the melody before i had a chance to recognize the notes on the chart, and my fingers just took over. it was impossible at that point for me to go back and start at the beginning.

In no way would i recommend to someone who is thinking about picking up an instrument to NOT take lessons and learn the craft inside and out, including on how to read and write and a thorough understanding of theory. OTOH, that's a great way to get a 15 year old kid who wants to rock completely discouraged and uninterested in playing music.
 
i learned to play bass and guitar on my own. i started with guitar when i was about 14. a year later a friend's band needed a bass player so i sold my guitar gear and got bass gear. i was in a couple of bands for the next couple years, and when i was 19, the band i was in got signed to a development deal. they put us on salary and told us to write songs and get better. that band had only been together for 3 months and we only had 7 songs.

i quit my job to play music(and it was impossible to party like i was at the time and do construction). Since i had the time, i decided that i was going to take a couple of intro music classes so i can start at the beginning and learn how to read music and get a better understanding of music. As i was learning how to read music and play the things on the charts, i would memorize the melody before i had a chance to recognize the notes on the chart, and my fingers just took over. it was impossible at that point for me to go back and start at the beginning.

In no way would i recommend to someone who is thinking about picking up an instrument to NOT take lessons and learn the craft inside and out, including on how to read and write and a thorough understanding of theory. OTOH, that's a great way to get a 15 year old kid who wants to rock completely discouraged and uninterested in playing music.



didn't work for almost 5 years. during that time i was writing songs, guitar, drums, and a whole lotta bass. that's how i got so incredibly talented . :p

I did the same but it only took me 5 weeks.:p

Seriously though good points, well made. All the theory stuff has to be willingly learned and applied. It's entirely possible to write/play/perform music with none or all of it. The balance is different for every player there is no right or wrong approach just the right one for "you" and the rest of the guys and gals that you share your music with. One thing for sure you need to enjoy it which ever way you go.

A bunch of guys that rock out playing loud fast, three chord power tunes would struggle playing in a Philharmonic, but most of the Philharmonic players wouldn't be able to present the same feel, edge and energy if they tried to rock out. There is every combination of playing in between. That's the beauty of moving air.
 
When I was 16 (1976) I left Mississippi...in the middle of the school year... to live with my dad in Va. on his invitation. I was pretty good at guitar by then. I knew alot of the Allman Bros at Fillmore East album by memory at that point. I also knew alot of Hendrix. The reason I was pretty good on guitar is because I sat in my bedroom for hours upon hours copping licks of records (I still have the inaudible scratched to hell and back albums to prove it). Thank God for 16 speed being exactly one octave lower in pitch than 33 speed!
Back then there were no DVD courses....no tabs....NOTHING!
If you learned guitar by ear you learned it your way not somebody elses way. I still do things that are technically incorrect, but sound right, because of that fact. Several of the chords I make have weird fingerings...but the chord is correct. For instance when I make an open E chord people ask me all the time "what in the heck chord is that?"

When I arived at the new school I had to decide what classes to take...and the classes were already into the second or third semester. One of the classes I chose was music theory class. I thought it would be a breeze and plus one of my jamming buddies (who also was into the allman bros) was in that class. I was lost as hell. The first day the class was being graded on playing piano scales from sheet music. Do what??? What the hell does petatonic mean??? Minor scale...what's that??? Oh THOSE are notes...what are the flag looking thingies on top of them???
I failed miserably. In fact I failed the class for the year (I also failed art class but that's another story.

I became a popular party band guest (alot of Live music/keg parties in that area at that point in time) and most of the time was jamming with much older players. I didn't realize it at the time but I was pretty damn advanced for a 16 year old.
So, that was my shot at music theory...I flunked.
The funny part is the ones that passed wanted me to teach them guitar:D
 
Always wanted to be a drummer, seemed there were plenty around at the time, so I picked up a bass and amp. That was the first thing I touched in the mornings, the last thing I touched at night.

First band when I was 13, playing Ventures at campgrounds and parties, didn't get paid much at that time. Started another band playing Black Sabbath, WHO, and the like.

At 16, I was playing in clubs and bars with older dudes....and some hot older women!

Started giving guitar and bass lessons at 18. One of my tests for taking on a new student was tell them to snap their fingers in time. No music either. Some got very embarassed when they found out they had no sense of timing.

Send those down the road.

When they would sign up for their schedule, I told them to bring their favorite song to practice, and I would teach it to them by the end of the week.

Had a Kiss fan, taught him 2 songs, and he still remembers them to this day.

He's still playing in 2 bands at the same time, making big bucks. Probably one of my best. Teach them theory, but very little amounts, It's not worth much to a working musician.

Two of them called me 3 years ago, thanking me for their start. I said NO, thank me for the Push!

Good feeling after 35+ years!:cool:
 
One problem - when you are play strictly in position (something we should all aspire to avoid, but that's another issue), there are seven basic "shapes" of a major scale. One with each note of the scale as the lowest note. But your point is still more or less correct - knowledge is usually a good thing, and can help you figure things out faster than if you don't have it.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

I understand that the major scale is considered the parent scale and the modes branch off of it.Even though minor (aeolian) is a mode of the major scale i still like to think of them seperate.In fact i like to think in terms of minor scale fingering when improvising.

For instance if i'm playing in the key of E minor i know i can play a B minor scale.Now i know it's really a E minor dorian mode because of the raised 6th but the fingerings are the same as a B minor.Same with an A minor but i know it's really the Phygian mode of E minor cause of the flatted 2nd.

For me it makes it easier to think on the fly.I know if i'm thinking in minor i can play the 4th note of my key(phrygian E=A),the fith(E=B),the minor 7th(E=D)which translates as the same notes as an E locrian mode.

I'll do the same when playing over a major chord.If i'm playing an A major i know i could play a C# minor scale.It's really the lydian mode of A major but on the fly i can think play the major third note of my key.If i'm playing a D major i can think play the 2nd note of my key and play an E minor which translates as the D major mixolydian.Maybe this don't make any sense at all and sorry if i'm wrong in my thinking but it's helped me.
 
Yes, certainly. I've been practicing them for years and years. Now I'm trying to un-practice them.

My solos are coming out at a scale run!!

There's a lot to be said about phasing.
 
One of my tests for taking on a new student was tell them to snap their fingers in time. No music either. Some got very embarassed when they found out they had no sense of timing.

Send those down the road.

So what you are saying is you are a shit teacher then, right? Because I'm sorry, but that is a bullshit "test" for who you will teach. People can learn to play in time, can learn to play with feel. I struggled like hell with it, and spent HOURS practicing with a metronome. But I got it.

The reason I got it was that I had a great teacher, who knew his way around the guitar, knew theory AND practice, and who - when he was young - had a really hard time learning to play guitar. He had to practice constantly to get even simple things when he was starting, but by the time I was taking lessons from him, he was great. Because he had to work for it, he could teach me the most important thing - how to practice. And while he was not a natural guitar player (he sounded like one when I knew him, but he told stories) he WAS a natural teacher. They are not related skills.

A real teacher shouldn't care what his student's talent is like, but what her passion is like.

Sorry, I don't mean to be a dick about this, but I fucking HATE that attitude from teachers. HATE.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
I spent a while learning theory for the hell of it and the only way I've applied it so far is for writing 2 part harmonies.

Not that I'm saying it has no value. I'm just lazy.
 
People can learn to play in time, can learn to play with feel. I struggled like hell with it, and spent HOURS practicing with a metronome. But I got it.

Sorry but that's total bullshit. You are either born with a sense of timing or you are not. When my children were infants they could wave their hands in time with music. Also you can't "learn" to play with feel you either have it or you don't. That would be like "learning" to love someone which would make it artificial.
 
Sorry but that's total bullshit. You are either born with a sense of timing or you are not. When my children were infants they could wave their hands in time with music. Also you can't "learn" to play with feel you either have it or you don't. That would be like "learning" to love someone which would make it artificial.

I tend to agree with this.
People that don't have natural timing or sense of melody can learn to play and they can get pretty good...but there is something missing.

I have a friend that is a very good guitar player. He is very outspoken and pretty darn blunt most of the time.

He says "Either you can play damn good or you fuckin' suck...there's no in between"
While I don't agree with that 100% for the most part it's true.
You either have musical talent or you don't have musical talent.
 
Sorry but that's total bullshit. You are either born with a sense of timing or you are not. When my children were infants they could wave their hands in time with music. Also you can't "learn" to play with feel you either have it or you don't. That would be like "learning" to love someone which would make it artificial.

i think Navin Johnson might disagree with this, bit I don't.

http://www.fancast.com/blogs/wp-content/post_images/Blog-Steve-Martin-The-Jerk.jpg
 
sorry but that's total bullshit. You are either born with a sense of timing or you are not. When my children were infants they could wave their hands in time with music. Also you can't "learn" to play with feel you either have it or you don't. That would be like "learning" to love someone which would make it artificial.

+1000000000000000000
 
I'd agree. You're either born with it or not. Not just with timing, but with an ear for a tune in a lot of cases.

That's not to say that people who aren't born with it can't learn to become servicable musicians. But they will only ever be serviceable. They will never be awesome.

I don't think that should deter anyone from making music though. If you're having fun, who cares if you suck.

Problem is, too many people want be a 'rock star', instead of just doing it for the fun.
 
Banned??????????????????????

Why was Pete banned? It's a shame that people have to be turds to a good and knowledgeable guy.
 
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