How to change the tone of my acoustic guitar

Armistice

Armistice

Son of Yoda
This might seem like a strange question...

I play a Maton Messiah guitar, which probably none of you have heard of, but it's a high end Australian dreadnaught acoustic.

I'm finding that I'm getting increasingly annoyed by the tone of the top (pitch) E string when played on its own. In a chord, no probls, however as I do lots of flatpicked and fingerstyle, it's really starting to get on my nerves.

Does anyone have any ideas how I could somehow "tame" the sound of that string - it's a bit on the harsh side. It's almost like there's an ugly harmonic making itself heard... or something like that...

I'm using Elixirs, however as I'm talking about an unwound string I'm assuming that putting a different brand of wire on won't make much of a difference, although I could be wrong.

I was thinking of somehow doing something to the bridge or nut (that's not permanent) that would have a beneficial effect on the tone of that one string. Soften it somehow... Possibly I'm dreaming...

I don't want to try to tame it via recording trickery, I want to try to get the sound better to start with...

Any and all thoughts appreciated...

Thanks
 
Has it always had this problem or is it a recent problem? Maybe the nut is not cut properly and is causing buzzing and/or harmonics that aren't noticed when chords are played.
Definitely time to have the set-up checked out I would say.
 
Thanks guys

It's always sounded the way it sounds - and it's not a problem as such, it's a beautiful sounding guitar - it's just that I'm seeking to change that sound of the top E and take some of the brightness out of it.

The strings on it are brand newbies.

Actually I used to weave some fabric through the strings between the nut and the posts to dampen any resonant harmonics coming from that length of string... maybe I'll try that again.

No-one else notices this, incidentally, it's just bugging me...

Cheers

Wow, I just realised I've finally hit 500 posts.... only took me 8 years... do I get an award?
 
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I had a Maton in the shop just the yesterday, actually (a Tommy Emmanuel Signature model, I believe).

The first thing you need to do is get it to a good repair shop and have them see if there is anything wrong with it. If there is, get it fixed. If not, sell it and buy a guitar which is right for you.

I know that sounds harsh, but the truth is if a guitar is in good shape and you don't like the sound, it's the wrong guitar for you, period. There is nothing that is going to make a major change in the sound of the guitar, whatever the inexperienced fools on the internet will tell you. If it was an electric, you could maybe try different pickups, but it's an acoustic, so no dice. It is the guitar it is going to be.

So first, make sure there is nothing wrong. Then, if it's still not the right guitar for you, get rid of it. Matons are fine guitars, and it is sure to be the right guitar for someone.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Armistice said:
Does anyone have any ideas how I could somehow "tame" the sound of that string - it's a bit on the harsh side. It's almost like there's an ugly harmonic making itself heard... or something like that...
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Sounds almost like a wolf tone - I don't know if they're common in guitars. Usually found in bowed instruments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_tone

If so, I don't know how you would get rid of it. Violin family instruments can use a wolf eliminator between the bridge and the tailpiece, but that wouldn't be possible in a flat top guitar.
 
Maybe try a different gauge E string or even switch the type of string. Experiment with it a little if you can. I would see if you or anyone could remedy your problem before you go buying another guitar. But thats just my opinion.:)
 
sometimes if a string is playing up ...i throw something under the string at the nut like a piece of thin film like material ....it might slightyly deaden the string and raise it slightly if is just barely catching a fret ......worth doing ...costs nothing.
 
You could try to dampen the sound with something. could even try a different guage of string. Even throwing something over a part of the sound hole might restrict some accoustics or harmonics. If you like the guitar a lot, try tuning it to different keys. Open E or A. Try lowering the top string to a d. But I think light has got it. It is probably just the guitar. check it out, and play some others. If the guitar has always sounded the way it does, it is not likely that it is gonna change that much. :):)
 
If the tone is the issue, maybe try picking it a different way? Much of the character of a tone is within your fingers. Have somebody else play a song you don't know on the guitar, and close your eyes. See if the issue still exists!
 
Last edited by Armistice : 14 Hours Ago at 21:28. Reason: Epiphany!
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So I assume you discovered your solution. Was it sympathetic resonance of the strings at the peghead?

Re the general subject of tone, even the brightest acoustic guitars I've played can get a rich and full tone. It's all in how you sound the strings. Flatpicking - use a medium or heavy gauge pick, angle the pick in a way that creates a slightly oblique attack. Instant round full tone. Same with fingerpicking.

Hit the string with a flatpick or fingernail straight-on, flat against the string, and most guitars will sound harsh. I mention it only because I see acoustic guitarists doing it all the time.

Disregard if you know this already.
 
crazydoc said:
Sounds almost like a wolf tone - I don't know if they're common in guitars. Usually found in bowed instruments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_tone

If so, I don't know how you would get rid of it. Violin family instruments can use a wolf eliminator between the bridge and the tailpiece, but that wouldn't be possible in a flat top guitar.
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It's unlikely to be a wolf tone. They occur at a very specific pitch and would match the natural resonant frequency of some part of the instrument or enclosure. They are not common on guitars because they need quite a bit of string energy to dominate. Thats why they are more common on bowed instruments. They can occur on guitars and the best way check for them is to detune a whole tone and see if it stops since the tone would be frequency dependant and only occurs on a single tone.

From what tho OP describes it seems to be happening on all notes on the E string. That would point to either a problem with the bridge saddle, or one of the high frets. More likely would be that it is the natural tone of that guitar. It's going to be hard to pin it down without seeing and hearing it in person.
 
zazz said:
sometimes if a string is playing up ...i throw something under the string at the nut like a piece of thin film like material ....it might slightyly deaden the string and raise it slightly if is just barely catching a fret ......worth doing ...costs nothing.
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This would only really have an effect on the open string. As soon as you fret a note you take the nut out of the equation.
 
Sounds like a saddle problem to me.

muttley600 said:
This would only really have an effect on the open string. As soon as you fret a note you take the nut out of the equation.
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I have what sounds like the same problem with my Taylor. Fretted or not, if you hit it the least bit too hard it sort of rings wrong, like there is an odd harmonic in there, and it doesn't sustain as long as it should. I hear this on lots of acoustic guitars, and it always seems to be that first string.

As an amateur, this is what I suspect: I think a bridge saddle is supposed to be completely smooth on top, but they tend to develop a little groove under the string over time (especially the softer plastic ones), which means the string must be sliding back and forth across the saddle to carve that groove. (Good argument for bone saddles and nice sharp angles down into the hole.) This can't possibly help a string ring true, can it? It also makes sense that the smallest string will be the "sharpest" one and have more of that grinding effect than other strings.

'Course, then again, I might be an utter a**hole. Any luthiers out there who know the physics of how that saddle/string connection works? Should we be smoothing our saddles down once in a while?

-zedhed
 
zedhed said:
I have what sounds like the same problem with my Taylor. Fretted or not, if you hit it the least bit too hard it sort of rings wrong, like there is an odd harmonic in there, and it doesn't sustain as long as it should. I hear this on lots of acoustic guitars, and it always seems to be that first string.

As an amateur, this is what I suspect: I think a bridge saddle is supposed to be completely smooth on top, but they tend to develop a little groove under the string over time (especially the softer plastic ones), which means the string must be sliding back and forth across the saddle to carve that groove. (Good argument for bone saddles and nice sharp angles down into the hole.) This can't possibly help a string ring true, can it? It also makes sense that the smallest string will be the "sharpest" one and have more of that grinding effect than other strings.

'Course, then again, I might be an utter a**hole. Any luthiers out there who know the physics of how that saddle/string connection works? Should we be smoothing our saddles down once in a while?

-zedhed
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On the whole you are correct. You need to have a clean point of contact between the string and saddle to get the string to ring true. Any partial contact or sloppy fit can and does result in "ringing" overtones or deadening the strings fundamental note.

That said a groove isn't a problem if the string leaves the saddle cleanly. Think about what you have at the nut.

Often there is a point at which the wear on the nut or saddle will result in problems. The problem can often be worse on strings where the tension is greatest and the material has a greater effect. Top E's yes, also wound g strings are typical.

The cure is to have the saddle re-cut or replaced. Bone is my material of choice. Cheap, long lasting traditional and sounds good. I prefer bleached others use unbleached. You'll notice no difference in tone between the two. I can never understand why plastic is used on an expensive guitar. I know why but don't understand why.

Sounds like you need to get the saddle reshaped or replaced. Not an expensive job and also one that you can have a go at yourself without ruining the guitar if your confident. Having it done by a decent shop shouldn't cost a fortune. I charge something like £25-30 depending on a few things.

The other possible cause of buzzing like you describe could be having an lower than practical action, a badly adjusted truss rod or a few high frets up the neck. If it's just the high E then these are less likely. A good setup would examine all these possibilities.
 
muttley600 said:
The cure is to have the saddle re-cut or replaced. Bone is my material of choice. Cheap, long lasting traditional and sounds good. I prefer bleached others use unbleached. You'll notice no difference in tone between the two. I can never understand why plastic is used on an expensive guitar. I know why but don't understand why.

Sounds like you need to get the saddle reshaped or replaced. Not an expensive job and also one that you can have a go at yourself without ruining the guitar if your confident. Having it done by a decent shop shouldn't cost a fortune. I charge something like £25-30 depending on a few things.
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That's exactly what I was going to suggest. If the guitar has a cheap bridge it's going to affect the sound. Get your bridge checked. If it's made out of plastic or some manmade material like Tusq, have a good luthier make you a new bridge out of bone. You might also look into replacing your plastic end pins with bone pins. I did that on one of my Taylors and it really made a difference.
 
Armistice said:
Does anyone have any ideas how I could somehow "tame" the sound of that string - it's a bit on the harsh side.
Click to expand...

You could try a small lump of blu-tac or plasticene pressed onto the bridge where the 1st string crosses it. That could kill hf overtones. Rather like the small sponge-ball tennis players put in their racquets to stop the vibrations that cause tennis elbow.
 
Thanks for all the advice...

I think it's related to the way it's crossing over at the nut, so I'll investigate there. I tried a small piece of cardboard under the string on the bridge and that helped as well, but it's still pronounced on the open string, so I'll look up the other end and see what I can see.

Cheers:D
 
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