Epiphone Tune-o-Matic intonation problem

ShanPeyton

ShanPeyton

Member
Good-day All.

I have a very odd problem happening. As the subject states, i have an Epiphone Les Paul Standard w/ a Tune-o-matic saddle bridge. I put new strings on it and began to intonate as usual. But not as usual, some of the saddles do not seem to be doing their jobs? Here is the totaly messed up part. I can turn the saddle as far one side or the other of bridge and the intonation stays EXACTLY the same pitch :confused: Any change, if any, is minute enough to not register.

This almost defies the laws of sound science? It has to to make some sort of pitch change? Right?

-using all new strings.
-tried four different tuners.
-have tried it in playing position and laying flat.
-Have tried loosening the strings all the way off prior to adjustments and have also tried it with just a hint of pressure on the saddle to keep it from jumping around?

Anyone care to enlighten as to what i could possibly be over looking here. It is kind of aggravating to experience this. There is something i am not seeing?


In the off chance i have to replace it any recommendations for a replacement?
 
That doesn't make any sense. Two things I can think of - the strings aren't wrapped well on the posts and are still tightening/adjusting (not likely) or the bridge posts are moving. If the bridge is set high there may not be enough threads down in the body or the posts themselves are bent. I have seen people add a second set of height-adjustment wheels to the bridge posts and tighten them down onto the body to stiffen up the posts.

That's all I've got.
 
Yep, that's weird. If you're moving the saddle and pitch isn't changing, then the point where the string ends (well, the sounding part of the string) must be somewhere else, or the tension is changing as the length changes. Is your bridge high enough that the string bends and therefore 'terminates' at the saddle?
 
A couple of pictures of the bridge might be helpful here. I can think of a couple other potential issues but pictures would rule 'em in or out.
 
It is impossible for what you describe to happen so there has to be another explanation. Can you describe how you are testing the intonation?
 
Sky Blue Lou said:
So are we going to hear anything else on this or what?
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Yes, sorry Lou. Got busy with life there. I am going to try and tackle this again this weekend and see if i can't get it figured out. I will attach a few pictures. Not entirely sure how much good they will do. The flash and overhead light made it hard for my little phone to do it's thing.

Here's hoping we can figure something out. I just can't see how this is possible? I tried it again on Tuesday night and same thing. I move the thing back and forth and the pitch change is nil. I will try and see if i can get pictures of the tuner and saddle together to prove i am not crazy or making it up.

Thanks for waiting, albeit idly :(
 

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muttley600 said:
It is impossible for what you describe to happen so there has to be another explanation. Can you describe how you are testing the intonation?
Click to expand...

My method of testing the intonation can vary. I may be going further than i have to.

First phase
i will lay my guit-fiddle on the table and i will fret the 12th - Pluck - tune accordingly, then release the string and pick the harmonic on the 12th and typically adjust flat or sharp as needed i will loosen the tension on the string until i can get it off the saddle, then put it back on and add just a tad of tension to keep the saddle in place. All that really holds it in is that stupid little retaining wire. (I believe that little jerk to be the culprit, but i have been known to be wrong on many occasions) tune it back up and do it all over again.

Second Phase
after I make any appropriate adjustments from phase one i will place the guitar in Playing Position, play the string open, tune if needed (rarely until as of late). Next, Fret the 12th see what happens, usually if it needs a tweak at this juncture it is minute to adjust for the gravity of having done it one laying on the table.

I think someone mentioned a lower action? I do play with a lower action on this particular guitar? I have considered raising it a little? Worth a shot right?
 
only thing i can think of is the threads are stripped,the darn things actually move right ?

your intonation procedure is same as mine,harmonic for rough fret for fine :)
 
cakewalkKaKed said:
only thing i can think of is the threads are stripped,the darn things actually move right ?

your intonation procedure is same as mine,harmonic for rough fret for fine :)
Click to expand...

Yep. I can move them as far up the threads as i can and right back again. I checked first thing as that was my initial thought was the threading was kaput.
 
The pictures aren't helping me - not clear enough and a bad angle. Can you take a couple across the bridge from deck level?

I'm certainly no expert but I'm real curious as to what is going on here.
 
Sky Blue Lou said:
The pictures aren't helping me - not clear enough and a bad angle. Can you take a couple across the bridge from deck level?

I'm certainly no expert but I'm real curious as to what is going on here.
Click to expand...


Hey there Lou. I got some more pictures. They are too big to upload into this forum so i will give you a dropbox link:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nxhraogx35w8lt8/tsGl6w5BsV

They are actually pretty cool pictures i took with my fiances Canon. HaHa, i may have to print them and frame them.

I played around with it a bit more today and some of the strings can intonate a little better. they aren't perfect but they do make the magic green LED light up. That is a good sign. However the B - string is still acting like a jerk and defying all logic? Not entirely sure what is going on. I literally have done nothing with it since my original post last weekend or whenever? I may have to try and get a video of what is going on to show you if these pictures turn up nothing obvious.

I am going to order some new saddles anyways i think they are in rough shape as it. This was my stage guitar back in the day and it has seen a lot of blood sweat and whiskey. HaHa!
 
1) its on the wrong way round

and looks like

2) the saddles have been mixed up,they should form a curve matching the radius of the neck
 
cakewalkKaKed said:
1) its on the wrong way round

and looks like

2) the saddles have been mixed up,they should form a curve matching the radius of the neck
Click to expand...


I am confident that it is on the bolts the right way around. If it isn't, someone should call Epiphone and tell them all their photos and literature are incorrect.

I can't say 100% if the saddles are in the correct place? I didn't do the last setup on this so the guy may have got one or two crossed? I did investigate the gauge of the slots in the saddles and they seem to be in a logical progression from what my eyeball says. Doesn't mean they are right, it just means that the slots seem to go from big to small as they should.
 
ShanPeyton said:
I am confident that it is on the bolts the right way around. If it isn't, someone should call Epiphone and tell them all their photos and literature are incorrect.

I can't say 100% if the saddles are in the correct place? I didn't do the last setup on this so the guy may have got one or two crossed? I did investigate the gauge of the slots in the saddles and they seem to be in a logical progression from what my eyeball says. Doesn't mean they are right, it just means that the slots seem to go from big to small as they should.
Click to expand...

its hard to tell even on those better quality pics,right or wrong way round,saddles mixed up or not i cannot see any reason on that bridge why it cant be intonated ... unless its always been out
 
The only thing I can see is that the G, B and E slots look a bit deep. Maybe there is too much surface contact and the contact point shifts - thus changing the length - as the saddle is adjusted? That's a wild-assed guess but all I have.

:confused:
 
Sky Blue Lou said:
The only thing I can see is that the G, B and E slots look a bit deep. Maybe there is too much surface contact and the contact point shifts - thus changing the length - as the saddle is adjusted? That's a wild-assed guess but all I have.

:confused:
Click to expand...

Regardless of that it will still have a fixed point. If it doesn't it will usually buzz. If the string length is lengthened then the intonation WILL change. It is a physical impossibility for it not to. Whether you can move it far enough is a different matter.

The issue of which way round the saddle goes is a bit of a myth. It should go which ever way it needs to go to get the fixed point in the right place.

If it was me doing this I would loosen the string and bring the saddle all the way back to start and loosen the string each time I move it and checked it. If the saddle is all the way back and it is still sharp on the intonation I'd switch that one round.
 
muttley600 said:
The issue of which way round the saddle goes is a bit of a myth. It should go which ever way it needs to go to get the fixed point in the right place.

If it was me doing this I would loosen the string and bring the saddle all the way back to start and loosen the string each time I move it and checked it. If the saddle is all the way back and it is still sharp on the intonation I'd switch that one round.
Click to expand...

I had to do that on my Epi SG. Two saddles are flipped around.
 
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