famous beagle
Well-known member
I wasn't sure really where to put this, but I figured here would be as good of a place as any, because the guitar world has plenty of "clones," whether it be amps, pedals, guitars, etc.
I was in a music store the other day, and I heard a couple of people talking about analog synths. Neither of them were employees, but the conversation was clearly framed within the scenario of the greenhorn and the veteran. The greenhorn asked about the Behringer clones that have flooded the market this past couple of years.
For those that don't know, Behringer has released very affordable "clones" - for the most part ... there are differences, such as the inclusion of MIDI, USB jacks, and a few other little tweaks here and there - of several classic analog synths from Moog, Sequential Circuits, ARP, etc.
Now, I'm primarily a guitar player, but I do love all things analog, including tape and analog synths. So I immediately perked up when I heard this conversation. Veteran guy didn't even bat an eye. As soon as the word "Behringer" was out of Greenhorn's mouth, he replied, "Oh God no. That Behringer stuff is total crap. Don't go anywhere near it. I can tell the difference between it and a Moog in my sleep."
After hearing this, I immediately thought about all the YT videos I've seen that compare the Behris against the originals and how impressed I was. Forgiving the fact that the originals were sometimes 40 years old at this point --- and most likely sounded slightly different than they did when they were new --- I was still blown away by how similar the Behris sounded.
In the comments of these videos, there were, of course, the purists like Veteran guy, who dismissed them right away as crap. But the vast majority of the comments seemed to be among the lines of "Even if this doesn't sound EXACTLY like a Moog, it still sounds amazing," or "I've played many Moogs over the years, and none of them sound exactly the same. This (Behri) sounds within the range of variation I've seen from Moog to Moog."
In short, they've gotten very positive reviews, generally. And when you consider the price, the tag line from most is always "it's a no-brainer." To give you an idea, Moog's reissue of their Model D monosynth costs about $3,500 new. Behringer's Model D sells new for $300. Granted, the Berhi doesn't have a keyboard -- it's just the sound module -- so you have to add a MIDI controller for it. But still, it's crazy the difference.
I know this is the guitar forum and I've been talking about synths, but the reason is because there are, of course, thousands of A/B videos on YT like this for guitar stuff as well. Pedals are probably the most common.
And it was Veteran guy's comment ... that he could "tell the difference between the two in his sleep" ... that got me thinking about blind listening tests in general.
Now ... maybe he's right. Maybe you could get as close to matching the sounds as possible between the Behri and the Moog and you could play the same exact phrase back to back. And maybe Veteran guy could guess which one he was hearing 10 times out of 10. I personally don't believe he could, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
But I started thinking ... "So what?" Even if that's true, what does it prove? That basically has no application in the real world. Taking it back to guitar land, for example, you never hear a track in which one lick is played with an original vintage Tube Screamer and then immediately afterwards with a JOYO TS clone. And then the track stops and someone says, "Ok ... which one was the original TS?"
What's a more important test, IMHO, is whether you can tell the difference between the original and the clone in completely different contexts, because that's the way they're going to be used. If a clone is good enough to fool you when you don't know what to listen for, then isn't it good enough?
In other words, let's say you're listening to a track and you say, "Wow! Great tone! What were you using?" And the other guy says, "I plugged my 61 Strat into a vintage Tube Screamer and went straight into my 68 Super Reverb. And then you believe him. But in reality, he was using a Mexican Strat running through a JOYO TS clone and into a reissue Super Reverb. Does the universe collapse on itself? Does time and space unravel?
Anyway, it just got me thinking about it. I know the A/B comparison is helpful to some people because it's clear and concise. But the more I think about it, the more I think it misses the whole point.
Any other thoughts?
BTW, I don't own a JOYO pedal, but I do own a Behri Model D, and I really love it.
I was in a music store the other day, and I heard a couple of people talking about analog synths. Neither of them were employees, but the conversation was clearly framed within the scenario of the greenhorn and the veteran. The greenhorn asked about the Behringer clones that have flooded the market this past couple of years.
For those that don't know, Behringer has released very affordable "clones" - for the most part ... there are differences, such as the inclusion of MIDI, USB jacks, and a few other little tweaks here and there - of several classic analog synths from Moog, Sequential Circuits, ARP, etc.
Now, I'm primarily a guitar player, but I do love all things analog, including tape and analog synths. So I immediately perked up when I heard this conversation. Veteran guy didn't even bat an eye. As soon as the word "Behringer" was out of Greenhorn's mouth, he replied, "Oh God no. That Behringer stuff is total crap. Don't go anywhere near it. I can tell the difference between it and a Moog in my sleep."
After hearing this, I immediately thought about all the YT videos I've seen that compare the Behris against the originals and how impressed I was. Forgiving the fact that the originals were sometimes 40 years old at this point --- and most likely sounded slightly different than they did when they were new --- I was still blown away by how similar the Behris sounded.
In the comments of these videos, there were, of course, the purists like Veteran guy, who dismissed them right away as crap. But the vast majority of the comments seemed to be among the lines of "Even if this doesn't sound EXACTLY like a Moog, it still sounds amazing," or "I've played many Moogs over the years, and none of them sound exactly the same. This (Behri) sounds within the range of variation I've seen from Moog to Moog."
In short, they've gotten very positive reviews, generally. And when you consider the price, the tag line from most is always "it's a no-brainer." To give you an idea, Moog's reissue of their Model D monosynth costs about $3,500 new. Behringer's Model D sells new for $300. Granted, the Berhi doesn't have a keyboard -- it's just the sound module -- so you have to add a MIDI controller for it. But still, it's crazy the difference.
I know this is the guitar forum and I've been talking about synths, but the reason is because there are, of course, thousands of A/B videos on YT like this for guitar stuff as well. Pedals are probably the most common.
And it was Veteran guy's comment ... that he could "tell the difference between the two in his sleep" ... that got me thinking about blind listening tests in general.
Now ... maybe he's right. Maybe you could get as close to matching the sounds as possible between the Behri and the Moog and you could play the same exact phrase back to back. And maybe Veteran guy could guess which one he was hearing 10 times out of 10. I personally don't believe he could, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
But I started thinking ... "So what?" Even if that's true, what does it prove? That basically has no application in the real world. Taking it back to guitar land, for example, you never hear a track in which one lick is played with an original vintage Tube Screamer and then immediately afterwards with a JOYO TS clone. And then the track stops and someone says, "Ok ... which one was the original TS?"
What's a more important test, IMHO, is whether you can tell the difference between the original and the clone in completely different contexts, because that's the way they're going to be used. If a clone is good enough to fool you when you don't know what to listen for, then isn't it good enough?
In other words, let's say you're listening to a track and you say, "Wow! Great tone! What were you using?" And the other guy says, "I plugged my 61 Strat into a vintage Tube Screamer and went straight into my 68 Super Reverb. And then you believe him. But in reality, he was using a Mexican Strat running through a JOYO TS clone and into a reissue Super Reverb. Does the universe collapse on itself? Does time and space unravel?
Anyway, it just got me thinking about it. I know the A/B comparison is helpful to some people because it's clear and concise. But the more I think about it, the more I think it misses the whole point.
Any other thoughts?
BTW, I don't own a JOYO pedal, but I do own a Behri Model D, and I really love it.