2 amps hum problem.

Jouni

New member
Hi all.

Since I'm the single guitarist in our 4-piece band, I thought I'd thicken up the sound using two amps in stereo.
I used a Loop-master ABY-switch but that setup has terrible hum!!
So, I bought a Lehle p-split passive splitter, which seemed to work on a gig out of town, but on our rehealsalplace two amps still cause an awful lot of hum!.:eek::confused:
Ground lifting didn't help, neither the Lehles phase-shift...

Turning off the volume from guitar kills the hum, though...

Any ideas what causes the noise and how could I get rid of it??
 
Did you try a ground lift on only one amp? Ground lifting can be dangerous if you ever have a fault in one of the amps, The fault will go for any path to ground which could be you. I always use GFCI protectors for all on stage power. They sell them in portable adapters.
VP
 
Hi all.

Since I'm the single guitarist in our 4-piece band, I thought I'd thicken up the sound using two amps in stereo.
I used a Loop-master ABY-switch but that setup has terrible hum!!
So, I bought a Lehle p-split passive splitter, which seemed to work on a gig out of town, but on our rehealsalplace two amps still cause an awful lot of hum!.:eek::confused:
Ground lifting didn't help, neither the Lehles phase-shift...

Turning off the volume from guitar kills the hum, though...

Any ideas what causes the noise and how could I get rid of it??

there's a ground loop somewhere. you could spend lots of time and money chasing it or you could take the easy way like i did when i was running a similar rig. run the whole thing off of the same power source. that means both amps and any pedals or whatever else you have that is plugged into an outlet should terminate at the same place. a power strip would be fine.

in my case i had one of my amps on the other side of the stage and i ran an extension cord over to that side just for that amp.
 
there's a ground loop somewhere. you could spend lots of time and money chasing it or you could take the easy way like i did when i was running a similar rig. run the whole thing off of the same power source. that means both amps and any pedals or whatever else you have that is plugged into an outlet should terminate at the same place. a power strip would be fine.
Although plugging both amps into the same power strip may help ground loop noise, the loop is still there. Each amp sees two grounds - the ground pin of its AC cord and that of the other amp through the shield of the signal cables. The path from ground up one AC cord to one amp, through the shields to the other amp, and down the other AC cord back to ground defines the loop. Lifting one amp breaks the loop, but there can be a shock hazard if you aren't careful about the order you connect things.
 
Although plugging both amps into the same power strip may help ground loop noise, the loop is still there. Each amp sees two grounds - the ground pin of its AC cord and that of the other amp through the shield of the signal cables. The path from ground up one AC cord to one amp, through the shields to the other amp, and down the other AC cord back to ground defines the loop. Lifting one amp breaks the loop, but there can be a shock hazard if you aren't careful about the order you connect things.

I was under the impression that the Lehle p-split is especially designed to break the groundloop at the source, with some transformer??..
 
I was under the impression that the Lehle p-split is especially designed to break the groundloop at the source, with some transformer??..

I was speaking in the general sense. If you have a ground loop, plugging both amps into the same power strip does not eliminate the loop. The fact that turning the guitar volume down kills the hum implies to me that your noise source isn't a ground loop, though.

You are correct that your splitter is designed to break ground loops (http://www.stevesmusiccenter.com/LehleP-Split.html). This page says it has "ground switches"; have you played around with those? It sounds to me that your guitar may not be seeing ground at all.
 
I was speaking in the general sense. If you have a ground loop, plugging both amps into the same power strip does not eliminate the loop. The fact that turning the guitar volume down kills the hum implies to me that your noise source isn't a ground loop, though.

You are correct that your splitter is designed to break ground loops (http://www.stevesmusiccenter.com/LehleP-Split.html). This page says it has "ground switches"; have you played around with those? It sounds to me that your guitar may not be seeing ground at all.

I played around with the switches, they changed the hum some, but didn't eliminate it. There's two outputs in the p-split, "dir" which is straight, and I think my guitar sees that ground, and "ISO" which is behind the transformer.

I emailed the Lehle company, will see if that is to any avail.
 
The connections are same as here:
http://www.lehle.com/products/pics/P-Split-II_150_Use1.jpg

Physically, It's on the floor between the amps.

Amps are a Novik mk120 and Sovtek mig-30, euro-type 3prong plugs.
If I remember correctly, removing one amp from splitter didn't help much, I had to plug in without the box to get rid of hum. Didn't try out removing the guitar, but as said killing guitar volume killed the hum too...
...Faulty P-split maybe?
 
I forgot I had this thread, awaiting closure....

Well, the power strip, putting everything in a single socket, helped the most. Thanks for reminding me about that old trick! :D
I got rid of the 60-cycle rumble, and was left with a waterfall-like hiss on the other amp, the other is dead silent...
But I can live with this. :cool:
 
Well, I guess I'm a little late to the party, but in general, the way to go about these things is to eliminate one potential issue at a time. Most of the time, the best way to start de-humming a guitar rig is to try unplugging your pedals from their wall warts, and running them on batteries. It makes a huge difference. By giving each pedal it's own power source, there is no place for a ground loop to happen. If you don't want to do this all the time (those batteries get expensive!), you can get a transformer isolated power supply, such as the Voodoo Labs Pedal Power 2 plus (that's the one I use). On the other hand, a lot of people think pedals sound better with batteries, because the power is cleaner (it is all but impossible, and rather expensive, to get all of the residual ripple out when you rectify AC to DC; batteries don't need to be rectified, as they start out as pure DC).

But that's probably not the issue on a two amp setup.

On most two amp setups, running everything off one power strip will help some of the time, but you will still run into venues where you have problems, because you still have two paths to ground that your signal can follow, which is what caused your problem in the first place. It will help if the destination is physically the same, but in some rooms the crap on the AC line will still be a problem.

Try a ground lift on one of the power cables to see if that is where your problem lies (on a two amp system that is clean when run on one amp, it usually will be), but under no circumstances should you EVER run it that way. It's not safe. Not all the time, but every now and then, YOU will be the shortest path to ground, which doesn't feel too good. If the splitter works, the way to fix it is simple - take one of the cables going from the splitter to the amp, open up one end, and cut the ground. Most of the time in a two amp setup, that will fix the problem, and it's a lot cheaper (and more transparent) than a transformer splitter box. You probably won't need or want this all the time (hell, some of the time this will make the problem worse - don't ask me, I don't get it, I just know that it is true). So, you carry one extra cable, and when you get to the gig, try them both.

A ground lift patch cable is perfectly safe, doesn't effect your sound (transformers probably will), and is also the cheapest way to deal with the problem - you just have to carry one extra cable with you. Just make sure you mark that cable, or you will confuse the shit out of yourself when you try to use it from your guitar to your pedal board!


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
I forgot I had this thread, awaiting closure....

Well, the power strip, putting everything in a single socket, helped the most. Thanks for reminding me about that old trick! :D
I got rid of the 60-cycle rumble, and was left with a waterfall-like hiss on the other amp, the other is dead silent...
But I can live with this. :cool:

Your in Finland right? Isn't that actually 50 cycle hum over there?

Just being pedantic. Don't mind me.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Your in Finland right? Isn't that actually 50 cycle hum over there?

Just being pedantic. Don't mind me.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi


I don't actually know! :D Everywhere just reads 220/230V 50/60hz, and it's over ten years since I was trained electrician, and never worked a day on that profession since!.. Heard a rumour that things had been altered a bit, but not sure.. :D
..Ok, my main fusebox/meter says 220V 50Hz.. You're right.:o
...Or my electricbills are a bit off...:)

BUT.. I'll try that "cutting-the ground-from-splitter-to-amp"-thingie too. Thanks!
 
Back
Top