Running an amp at Max??

Disco_Dave

New member
I have a Samson amp going into a set of Tannoy Reveals and a friend recently told me that I should keep the volume on the amp at maximum level and then just adjust the volume from the mixer. Could someone confirm whether this is true...I am just wary of pushing equipment to its limits....as i'm sure many are.
 
Well, it depends. If doing this means that you get hiss and noise, then no. Otherwise it's quite possible to do that, although I don't see that it's a particularily useful general principle.

I would probably set it so that when you have full volume on the monitor outs, the volume is slightly too loud. That way you get a good volume when turning down the monitor outs a bit, and then you have a margin upward if you want to raise the volume, but you still run the monitor outs close to the top level of their capacity.

In bad mixers, and with bad luck, you might actually run the monitor outs *too* hot that way, and then you need to turn down them and crank up the amp to not get distortion. But that shouldn't really happen.
 
Doing this gives no discernable extra noise. Not that I could hear above the noise from the mixer anyway!

I couldn't really see the point as with the amp volume on about 1/2 and the mixer volume at similar I can get a perfectly good volume for mixing (for my ears anyway). My friend seemed to think that amps produced a better sound when turned up high , but to me it seems no different really. It didn't make much sense to me because as a bassist I never run my amp at anywhere near full volume...OK I have a powerful rig but in my experience full volume means distortion and speaker damage....

I just asked to see whether it was a well known way to do things but seeing as the way I have it now works I don't think I'll start messing around.

Thanks for your comments.
 
I was wondering about this before, I have hr824 which have there own amps, pretty big ones, they have no volume control, so they always run full out, the only control they have is a small nob on the back that you need to adjust with a screw driver, but all that does is lower the input signal, not control the amps. So apperantly these amps are designed to run full out, but I like regebro's suggestion, turning the amp down a little can hurt it
 
Basically it's just another sensitivty control option to alow you to reduce the gain if you have more than needed. Full open it is out of the circuit, but amp hiss (might) be reduced by turning it down.
 
Turning down the volume controls of the amp ALSO changes the input sensitivity on most amplifiers. Basically, that means that the input of the amp may more easily "clip". If you clip the input of a power amplifier, it is capable of producing 5 times it's rated maximum output!!! That is not so good for speakers eh? :)

In the end, you might just NEED to turn down the input of the amp to create a better taper on the volume control knob of the circuit before the amp. I use a Hafler P3000, and instead of input controls that go from full on the full off (full attenuation), it offers up to -14 of attenation. You cannot fully turn down the amp.

Recently, at the studio, we replaced the P4000 with a P3000 (we closed down one of the editing rooms, so we had both amps available). With the P4000, the volume controls had to be set to around 7 or it was just too loud. The P4000 has a full "to infinity" input control. Anyway, when we put the P3000 in, we of course had to leave the volumes at full to achieve the same volume coming out of the monitors because of the output wattage differences between the two amps (bascially, the P4000 NEEDED to be set at 7 to match the same output level of the P3000 at full volume...) So, on the Control Room Output on the mixer, our normal listening volume setting was around 3 or 4.

I didn't like this. The taper of most rotary pot's starts getting extremely sensitive as you get to the lower regions of it. So, the difference between "3" and "4" was pretty drastic. I wanted a smoother taper, so I turned the input of the P3000 to -14. This allowed us to turn the C/R Output knob up to 5 to achieve a similar volume that 3 provided with the P3000 at full volume. But now, I get a much more smooth taper when turning the C/R Out up and down. The difference between "5" and "6" is not the same with the P3000 at -14 as the difference between "3" and "4" was with the P3000 at full volume.

Okay, so basically I just traded some input sensitivity on the input of the amp to allow for me to use a wider taper on the C/R Out (I could have said just that, but I KNOW that that would have confused some people...I find too many people don't follow good gain structure practices....)

The reason I don't like doing something like this is because you are then relying on the input knobs accuracy on the amp. These pot's are not always showing you the best accuracy, but usually, full off produces no volume, and full on produces max volume on the amp. It is the "inbetween" that usually concerns me. :)

Now, an amp that was maybe half the power of the P3000 at 4 ohms would have meant that I could run the amp at full volume and still have the C/R Out set to around 5 to enjoy a better taper on the C/R Out pot. BUT, I believe in running amps that are at least 150% the rated power of the speakers. Doing so FORCES you to keep gains before the amp set lower

So, I could have traded more rated power for not having to use reduction in the input sensitivity of the amp, but would have possibly traded "security" in my knowledge that the higher wattage amp would force me to reduce volume before the amp.

Blah blah blah....The point I am making here is that gain structure is simple AND complex. :) Do what works, but do so logically.

In your case I would:

Try running the amp at full volume first. This is the only way you can be assured that the input sensitivity knobs are not creating unbalanced outputs for left to right channels. Just because there is a silkscreen printing on the front of the amp that says "7" on both channels doesn't mean that both pot's are taper EXACTLY the same. 7 on one side might truely translate into 7.5 on the other! On cheaper amps, I have found this to happen a lot unfortunately. Running both volumes at full will at least assure that both sides of the amp have EXACT input sensitivity, or at least that the knob is not part of the difference that still may be present. You are also forcing yourself to reduce gain's in the circuit before the amp, which is desirable considering that clipping the input of an amp will produce output peaks up to 5 times it's rated max power.

Next, check to see that you can in fact get a good range of volume with the Control Room Output you are using to feed the amp. If you can get a good range, then keep the amps at full. If you have to turn the C/R Out down pretty low just to get the loudest volume you would want to work at, and when you turn it down even lower you notice that the balance from left to right starts to change (one channels goes lower than the other...this is something that CAN happen on stereo signals that are controlled by the same volume knob when that knob is at it's lower part of the knobs taper) then you need to create a way to keep that C/R Out at a higher setting to avoid this problem. About the only way to do this is to turn down the input's on the amp.

If that is the case, then run a mono sine wave through your monitors and sit in the ideal listening position and make the adjustments that way. Don't ASSUME that 6 or 7 on both volumes on the amp is the same. That may not be true. Use your EARS to tell you .

I have had first hand experience with Samson amps. I have found that I usually needed to adjust one side differently than the other to get proper balance. Maybe a faulty input pot on one side of the amp? Who knows. My Hafler usually doesn't suffer from this, but Hafler is consider fairly high end stuff, so I could expect it to provide better accuracy between what actually happens and what the tactile surface says.

Anyway, hope this helps a bit.

Ed
 
I'm a little confused. I run my signal into my computer from the board itself via Tape out or channel "inserts". My amp powers my monitors only. All my levels are controlled at the mixer, technically I can shut the amp/monitors clean off and still have a strong and clear signal into my computer.
 
I heard/read somewhere that most power amp manufacturers recommend running the amp wide open and controlling the volume through the board to maximize the S/N ratio. I think they also said it sounds better (in terms of a better frequency response).
 
sonusman said:
Turning down the volume controls of the amp ALSO changes the input sensitivity on most amplifiers. Basically, that means that the input of the amp may more easily "clip".

Ed

Sonusman, I didn't get this part. Could you expotentiate a bit please.
Thanks
Wayne:D
 
mixsit, maybe I have oversimplified! It is probably not appropriate to run the input on an amp at full in every situation (Slackmaster just got a Hafler TA1600 amp, and he runs a NAD preamp before it, with his Delta 1010 feeding the NAD..I go, Lynx One, Mackie 1202 Stereo input, Hafler...On his system, he cannot run the amp at full or he gets a LOT of noise, possibly from the output of the NAD..if he turns the NAD down, he doesn't get the right taper on the volume knob...

http://www.live-audio.com/studyhall/gain.html

Here is a good discussion on gain structure.

Ed
 
I have absolutely NO idea how this all works, but I'm wondering if this whole "power amp at 100%" thing is another example of a misused fact?

I had assumed that on a power amp, the "volume" knobs were simply input attenuators, and that the amp itself would always be "amplifying" by 100%. Perhaps it is this attenuation that can have a negative impact on the sound? I don't know.

I do know that in the manual for my TA-1600, it said to adjust the inputs such that I would get a slight amount of clipping with my incoming volume at 2/3 to 3/4. This required that I set the knobs on the amp at about 4 (of 10). When I did this, I of course found that it was much easier to adjust volume with my preamp, AND that my noise floor dropped to pretty much nothing (when I first had it at 100% it was definately noisey because of my preamp).

One tip: sonusman convinced me to buy a sound level meter ($35 from radio snack) and it helped a lot with setting up the power amp. I found that "4" on one channel was almost 3db louder than "4" on the other channel. Turning up the quiet channel by just a hair fixed it. I guess that could be expected, as pots are not really "accurate" devices. At any rate, the meter helped me balance the system properly....and learn where that critical 85db level lives at.

Personally I would go with usability over "potential" sound quality in this case...unless turning down the power amp really has a nasty impact on the sound. With my amp at 100% it was not only noisy, but WAY too hard to adjust volume as very small movements on the preamp resulted in HUGE leaps in level....plus the volume knob on my preamp isn't very accurate at low levels (channels become unbalanced under about 15%). Not only was this inconvenient, it was kind of dangerous. It's nice to have a lot of usable room on that volume knob, and even if I accidentally crank it way up I know I'm not going to blow anything.

P.S. I did a minimal amount of searching on deja about this subject and found all sorts of "recommendations"...some even say to set the volume in the middle of the pot because it's more "linear" there. Who knows... In my previous searchings about modding preamps, one common mod was to replace pots with switching resistors....but man, it better have a big impact on the sound to bother with something like that.

Slackmaster 2000
 
Hey guys,

I have a samson servo 120, and in the manual it says:
For the best signal to-noise ratio, the servo 120 should normaly be run with the channel input controls at or near maximum (fully clockwise, at the "0 dB" position).

So maybe most amps should be run wide open?

Thanks
Pier
 
It depends on the output level of the device before the amp that is supply the audio. The volume controls are a input sensitivity. That is an adjustment that correlates to how much voltage is needed to cause the amp to achieve full power. If there is a mismatch between the output voltage of the device before tha amp, and the input sensitivity of the amp (the output being higher voltage than what the input of the amp wants), you could cause the input of the amp to clip, and that would cause severe distortion at the output.

Slack, in your case, it could very well be that your NAD is an active preamp circuit and when I use my Mackie that it is a passive circuit, which would explain why I can run an amp that puts out much higher power than yours at full without a bunch of noise to the same type of speakers.

Ed
 
I've read lots of different informational posts on this subject too, and thinking on setting the speakers (volume) at 85 dbs and knowing the full potential of each side seems to be the better choice, if you have a db meter. Its also been stated that an amplifier looses its potential power after about 80% of the maximum volume setting (around 8 on the channel) then the volume actually decreases linearally, so I dont have a db meter and I turn my channels wide open and back off 5 detents from full.
 
I've read lots of different informational posts on this subject too, and thinking on setting the speakers (volume) at 85 dbs and knowing the full potential of each side seems to be the better choice, if you have a db meter. Its also been stated that an amplifier looses its potential power after about 80% of the maximum volume setting (around 8 on the channel) then the volume actually decreases linearally, so I dont have a db meter and I turn my channels wide open and back off 5 detents from full.
Old thread :D
 
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