Monitors vs. headphones

[enferno]

i have been told countless times that monitors under $reallyexpensive are worthless to mix on. however, i have also been told that headphones are equally worthless to mix on. i know that headphones take the acoustics of a room out of the equation, but if you listen to enough music in the style that you are mixing on, can't you basically work around that just liek you would if you switched to a different pair of monitors? and can't that same mind-frame be aplied to shitty monitors? if you listen to them enough, can't you still essentially get the same results?

myself, i have 2 pairs on monitors, both eually shitty, and 2 pairs of headhphones, both considered top end. if i can get a mix that sounds decent on all 4 of these, how can i justify shelling out a wad of cash for better monitors?

 

[mishagolin]

headphones are good for monitoring while you record. however, they are not good for monitoring a mix. having each speaker set discretely to each ear doesn't allow for a proper interpretation of the stereo field. also, having the speaker drivers that close to your ears effects the frequencies that are most pronounced.

using headphones to mix does eliminate poor room acoustics. however, you are trying to get your mixes to translate well to all kinds of systems. as much as the "sound" of a room is important, it is much more important to know your room and how it translates to other atmospheres.

if you're really happy with your mixes then keep using what you're using. however, i do think you'll be suprised at how much of a difference a set of monitors can make when interpreting the stereo field.

 

[tkingen]

i have been told countless times that monitors under $reallyexpensive are worthless to mix on. however, i have also been told that headphones are equally worthless to mix on. i know that headphones take the acoustics of a room out of the equation, but if you listen to enough music in the style that you are mixing on, can't you basically work around that just liek you would if you switched to a different pair of monitors? and can't that same mind-frame be aplied to shitty monitors? if you listen to them enough, can't you still essentially get the same results?

myself, i have 2 pairs on monitors, both eually shitty, and 2 pairs of headhphones, both considered top end. if i can get a mix that sounds decent on all 4 of these, how can i justify shelling out a wad of cash for better monitors?

For real world applications, mixing with monitors is the way to go. But if you're mainly doing it as a hobby and like the results - mix however you like.
I prefer to edit individual tracks with headphones. It helps in hearing the little things better like crossfades, removing noise, etc. But I'd never try to create the illusion of a soundstage without having "air" between the speakers and my ear drums.
But, do what works for you.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Whad'ya Mean I Can't Mix With Headphones????

 

[K-dub]

Um...please pardon my blasphemy, but I (after many years) have come to believe:

Headphones are fine to mix on ... hell, shitcans are fine to mix on. Just mix on what you trust.

Then make sure you double check your results with the rest of the world.

See what the important element here is?

It doesn't matter WHAT you mix on. Certain things are easier to mix on than others, but I break from the crowd when I say: IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT YOU MIX ON (and I KNOW the reasons it "shouldn't work"). Yet, the greatest albums have been mixed on the suckiest (that's a technical term) monitors...that, um, shouldn't work.

...it only matter how it sounds when it plays back.

Mix on what you trust the playback to translate well on. HOW you do that is irrelevant...and it's a personal choice.

If you mix on the XYZ company's trash bins and everywhere else you play it, it sounds great ... does it matter how you got there ... or simply THAT you got there?

YES --- YES --- YES --- YES --- high end gear makes this easier.

But ANY gear makes it possible. It isn't the gear, it's the process.

Let me say that twice, for being nice:

IT ISN'T THE GEAR, IT'S THE PROCESS. Gear is simply a facilitator.

I'm now going to be burned by gear folk.

Best,

Kev.

 

[K-dub]

addendum to above:

One must realize that no engineer looked at the NSM10s technical specifications and said, "You know, if I mixed on these, the technical specs predict this should be a killer mix."

I know, I was an EV rep at the time of the birth of this weirdness, and MOST of the "experts" repeated doctrine was "Japanese products sound "off" and generally stink."

So much for "generally stinking" becoming industry standard...as it was widely commonly adopted by all things music.

So the "evolution" (or de-evolution as it were) of the trades, have been, and continue to be "what works ... uh ... well ... works". Microns be damned. It's the same with microphones and mic pres. You know it when you hear it.

The rest is designed to sell to the public.

Best,

Kev.

 

[TheDewd]

Um...please pardon my blasphemy, but I (after many years) have come to believe:

Headphones are fine to mix on ... hell, shitcans are fine to mix on. Just mix on what you trust.

[/i][/b]
See what the important element here is?

It doesn't matter WHAT you mix on. Certain things are easier to mix on than others, but I break from the crowd when I say: IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT YOU MIX ON (and I KNOW the reasons it "shouldn't work"). Yet, the greatest albums have been mixed on the suckiest (that's a technical term) monitors...that, um, shouldn't work.

...it only matter how it sounds when it plays back.

Mix on what you trust the playback to translate well on. HOW you do that is irrelevant...and it's a personal choice.

If you mix on the XYZ company's trash bins and everywhere else you play it, it sounds great ... does it matter how you got there ... or simply THAT you got there?

YES --- YES --- YES --- YES --- high end gear makes this easier.

But ANY gear makes it possible. It isn't the gear, it's the process.

Let me say that twice, for being nice:

IT ISN'T THE GEAR, IT'S THE PROCESS. Gear is simply a facilitator.

I couldn't have said better myself!

This Bear guy keeps pointing everyone towards his opinionated "Whadd'ya mean...?" article that only reflects his close mindedness and lack of opening to high-quality open-type reference headphones available today.

Having that said, I recently tried many good studio monitors, just to get a TASTE of what it's like to mix on speakers. I found that most high-end monitors offer definition comparable to my Sennheiser high-end open headphones. However, I can still mix at night with my headphones...you CAN'T do that with any monitor. Since I'm a nightlife guy, headphones are a must. Does it translate well ? Of course I need to make adjustments, but those are always minor level issues.

Plus, I can pan MUCH BETTER with headphones, since I can hear exactly what is going on which side. 48'' apart bookshelf-sized Wharfeshits can't offer that, For the soundstage to be real, you need mid-fields or far-fields.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

This Bear guy keeps....
....close mindedness...

Blah, blah... blah, blah, blah...........

Instead of talking so much shit, I'd love to hear these "wonderful" headphone mixes of yours, skippy...............

 

[Mo-Kay]

I know Bear is right when it comes to room acoustics, etc etc... I also agree with others when it comes to little details, editting, panning, etc.

I guess it can't harm doing some stuff on headphones...but mixing and checking on monitoring speakers is mandatory.


That being said...I must admit I know people that mix on headphones and have some good sounding stuff...

 

[TheDewd]

Blah, blah... blah, blah, blah...........

Instead of talking so much shit, I'd love to hear these "wonderful" headphone mixes of yours, skippy...............

You have to remember that it's the abilities that make the mix, not the gear!

Obviously, I'm not a professional mix engineer like you are, so I doubt you would find my mixes good, even if I used monitors instead of headphones. So it's pretty irrelevant for me to send you something, cause even if I mixed on monitors instead of headphones, you would find something to criticize.

 

[asulger]

I'm working on something right now that when I'm checking it using headphones (Grado's open) and want to focus on a particular frequency I just shift the headphones the tiniest bit and can bring it into focus. If a little adjustment like that can affect the frequency spectrum so much, I don't see how these could be used for mixing or mastering.

Monitors, on the other hand, have a consistent spectrum and sound-field, even with slight head movements.

Conclusion - headphones for checking flaws, clicks, bad edits, etc.
Monitors for everything else.

Just my 12 cents...

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Conclusion - headphones for checking flaws, clicks, bad edits, etc.
Monitors for everything else.

Exactly......

Incidently - I never said it was IMPOSSIBLE to mix with headphones. I said it's very difficult to do it well. If someone thinks the learning curve for mixing on monitors is long, the learning curve for translating mixes via headphones is several orders of magnitude longer, and frankly - what's the point? Why not learn it right, right off the bat?

 

[Mo-Kay]

well, I'd say that's a fairly peacefull conclusion to the whole discussion


now let's just hope everybody will get to a point they can use monitoring speakers without getting their head taken off by an angry roommate/neighbour, etc.

 

[SonicAlbert]

well, I'd say that's a fairly peacefull conclusion to the whole discussion

Well, hardly. Maybe everybody is just a little tired of that argument, as there was a major thread about it a few weeks back.

now let's just hope everybody will get to a point they can use monitoring speakers without getting their head taken off by an angry roommate/neighbour, etc.

That's called turning it down.

I do believe that headphones are an important and essential tool for mixing. Great for checking certain things like panning, edits--detail type stuff.

However, other important tools in the mixing arsenal include: listening at whisper quiet levels, checking loud for brief periods, listening in mono, and switching between two different sets of monitors. All these tools are critical and relying on just one of them to do everything, like headphones, is to invite a mix that does not translate well.

I don't think a super expensive pair of monitors is required to have the tools necessary to do a good mix. A pair of monitors that is good quality and well matched to the room should be fine enough. I'm talking maybe in the $500-1,000 (a pair) range for the bottom end of that category.

 

[K-dub]

What Sonic Albert said above regarding listening loud/soft/mono etc... is absolutely true...as is Bruce's comment about not being impossible to mix on headphones, but it certainly makes it harder to get a mix that translates well, AND the learning curve is likely much longer to get things right.

But monitors are simply a playback system. Headphones are a playback system. Your car, your living room stereo, your boombox ... ALL playback systems. And the goal is to have your mix sound good in all of them...

...so mix away on headphones if that is your desire. It's only one playback system in a myriad of choices. Just make sure that you're checking all the other playback systems at your disposal to ensure that what you're doing on your headphones sounds good.

That's the bottom line.

Best-

Kev.

 

[jeffree]

Headphones + monitors = the best results. IMO.

I used just phones for a year and got the job done... but I got so tired of running mixes to other systems and back, again and again, to find the right levels. Once I added monitors, moving back and forth from cans to monitors has made mixing so much easier. Even fun. Now, when I run a mix to my other systems, I seldom have much more tweaking to do. What a difference.

J.

 

[CoolCat]

i second that...what a difference!

i've tried a few different speakers/monitor sets past year or so,
and even tho each monitor sounds different....all the monitor mixes have shown to work much better than Headphones for translating the mix to other systems is my experience.

my brother could only use HiFi speakers (no cash) and has had much better translated mixes than using headphones 100%.
he was exstatic too.

"what a difference" is an understatement IMO.
more like years wasted, doing it the dumbass way.....

to me using monitors is like tuning a guitar, you don't HAVE to do it...
and good luck if your dead-set on headphones.

speaking of phones, i traded for some new headphones tonight for Tracking vocals etc.. (and anything else that causes feedback!) AKG 271's.
it was that or some Behringer 2031Passives... funny thing i had the drumset to trade in my car for a few days...and when i got 'em out of the car all the black plastic had like melted and bubbled. the store still did the trade which surprised me?? melted drums...whooa.

 

[K-dub]

Melted drums ... man that store must have been hard up to make a sale.

Bruce hit it on the head above, using monitors makes it easier to get better translation than headphones. Still, headphones can be used effectively, so long as you're very intimate w/ the set's nuances.

Better yet, what I do is mix through 3 sets of speakers (varying in size and quality -- from good monitors to small hi fi) AND headphones AND a boombox ... checking that the mix sounds even on all ...

Once I've got it good across the board, then I know the mix is ready to be distributed widely to any system.

If one REALLY wants to nail translation, "the more the merrier" is the axiom to follow.

Still, mixes CAN be done on phones alone ... so long as the translations are checked elsewhere.

Best,

Kev.

 

[reshp1]

Plus, I can pan MUCH BETTER with headphones, since I can hear exactly what is going on which side.

I bet you say this because you haven't taken care of your first reflection points. Treat your room and then tell me that.

I'll agree to the extent that you CAN mix on headphones, but it is a comprimise at best. I mean, you can drive nails with the bottom of your shoe if you had to but it's not the best tool for the job. Of course knowing a set of cans inside and out helps, but only up to a point. The way headphone mixes translate is UNPREDICTABLE, and not something you can necessarily LEARN over time.

EDIT: Out of morbid curiousity, I read through some of your other posts TheDewd and I just gotta say.. You are so full of shit that I feel silly for even attempting to correct you in the above post. You haven't a clue what you are talking about and that doesn't seem to stop you in the least.

 

[TheDewd]

I bet you say this because you haven't taken care of your first reflection points. Treat your room and then tell me that.

I'm a poor student. Pay me the treated room and I'll mix with monitors.

I'll agree to the extent that you CAN mix on headphones, but it is a comprimise at best. I mean, you can drive nails with the bottom of your shoe if you had to but it's not the best tool for the job. Of course knowing a set of cans inside and out helps, but only up to a point. The way headphone mixes translate is UNPREDICTABLE, and not something you can necessarily LEARN over time.

But Headphones don't leak that much of noise when roomates are sleeping nearby. I always mix at night.

EDIT: Out of morbid curiousity, I read through some of your other posts TheDewd and I just gotta say.. You are so full of shit that I feel silly for even attempting to correct you in the above post. You haven't a clue what you are talking about and that doesn't seem to stop you in the least

Thank you. Now please just tell me where am I wrong? If I choose to drive my nails with my boots, it's my thing, that doesn't mean I'm full of shit for doing it my own way. All I'm trying to expose on this board is the evercoming old sayings that pollute this BBS...things like "You can't mix on headphones...". Of course you can. It's up to you to make sure it translates well. This is why I play it on at least 4 different systems in 4 different environments and then I make the changes to the mix so that it's translatable.

Doing so with monitors is probably "a little" less trouble, but MUCH MORE NOISE at night too.