How much difference does the A/D conversion make?

blue4u

blue4u

well that's just like you
I need some help here. My audio is missing something and I can't put my finger on it. I'm using various high quality guitars, a nice tube condenser mic, etc. but my recordings lack some clarity, dynamic or sonic width? I know that a high quality preamp can help matters but I'm not sure that's it either? So my question is...

What kind of audible difference does a high end A/D converter make? Are there sound clip comparisons of the differences? Please link to them if you know of any. Are the differences in recordings with competitive current A/D D/A converters subtle or obvious? I'm not going for small details here. I just want to record the best tracks I possibly can!

I'm using a Tascam FW-1082 Firewire interface with stock preamps. I don't use any other external gear and rely mostly on plug-ins to EQ and compress.

Thanks for your help guys!

Rich
 
IMHO, the impact of better converters, while significant to your over all sound, is relatively subtle and less important than most of the other elements in your recording chain. In terms of impact on your sound and in descending order:

Artist
Material
Mic
Mic Placement
Room/Acoustics
Monitors
Preamp
Converter

Now people will certainly quibble about the exact order here, but in the general scheme of things, converters generally fall farther down the list than most of the other elements in the recording chain. I recently upgraded from an Aardvark Q10 to a Lynx Aurora 8, and while the conversion difference is audible, it was also the last thing I felt I needed to upgrade and was certainly less important and less significant than getting better mics, fixing my room (which still needs some work) and using better preamps. My chops need some work too, but that's more difficult than just buying stuff:D

I'm not familiar with the Tascam unit, but for a street price of $600, it's doubtful that the preamps and converters are stellar. Nonetheless, I'd work on mic placement and room treatment long before I'd get better converters. Once you've dealt with mic placement and room treatment, you could also consider a better freestanding preamp if you can bypass the Tascam preamps to use it. I see that it has 2 inserts so you could probably use those for the outboard preamps. If you do add outboard preamps, I would think that you would want something at least as good as a DMP-3 or a GT Brick (or better if you can). Anything cheaper is likely to be indistinguishable from the Tascam pres.

If you do want to listen to some converter comparisons, you might try a search on the Gearslutz site. I recollect there have been various Apogee/Lynx/Lavry/etc. comparisons posted from time to time.
 
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Well, if you are already using a high quality instruments and a good mic that you are happy with, then the next step is to upgrade your preamp and converters. You only sound as good as the weakest link in your chain, and the Tascam preamps and converters that you are currently using are adequate but not great.

The next thing for you would be the preamp, then the converter, in that order.

Also, preamps are something where money definitely buys quality, so expect to pay upwards of $750 or so per channel. Don't do any side-grades or budget oriented thinking, that would simply be a waste of money for you at this point. Same goes for converters when you get to that point--spend the money on the good stuff.
 
i've got a tascam fw1884 here... yours should have the same convertor chips (AKM) granted it ain't lavrey but there's not a damn thing wrong with them.... way better than what motu for instance uses... and the analog section of the thing is real clean as well... you may need to add a diff pre for color... or perhaps you've got a monitor or room problem...
 
the problem with listening to audio clips of different convertors is, they are al only ever gonna sound as good as the ones you're listening through. :rolleyes:
 
LemonTree said:
the problem with listening to audio clips of different convertors is, they are al only ever gonna sound as good as the ones you're listening through. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

ha.....ha....ha... that cracked me up. sorta like the tv comercials for high definition telivisions that show a cristal clear breathtaking tv picture



........... that i vew thru a peice o sh** tv ....and i think wow that tv has a great picture:D:D

I use the converters in my fw 1082 and couldnt be more happy with it ;). I have no plans on upgrading any time soon.. If my 1082 takes a dump on me i will get another one to replace it...
 
i would think about 3 things before i wasted my money and then wondered why i was not getting great gains for my top dollar..



1)just a thought how are your cables? never buy used and always wrap them up the right way. I like mogami cable and i stay away from monster (i think they are muddy sounding imo).

2)how is your room treatment? thats going to make a ***BIG*** difference.

3) trial and error. learning when to add reverb and why? how to eq properly and why? where to pan to open up the mix and why? and generaly how to use the equipment the right way to get the most out of it....even if its plugins.

Its all an art that takes time(years) to learn.

why not post some samples up on the forum for review(in the correct forum). the people here have plenty of combined experince and it may help us zero in on your problem and help your mixes flow and sound better.
 
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just for the record

According to black lions website the motu's use AKM convertors
as well as RME, Digidesign, etc
 
I used to own a couple Tascam DM-24 mixers, which use very comparable preamps and converters to the other Tascam gear being discussed in this thread. The preamps sounded fine to me until I A/B'ed them with a Grace 201, and the converters sounded fine until I A/B'ed them with a Benchmark DAC-1 and Universal Audio 2192. The difference was not particularly subtle.

This is not to knock Tascam, they put out some fine gear at a great price point. But price point will determine a lot of their design choices. A pair of preamps costing nearly $2,000 for just the preamps will most certainly sound *much* better than preamps in a digital interface that also includes tons of other features. There's no way the manufacturer can use the same quality of parts or spend the same time on the design and testing of those preamps as can a manufacturer who is creating high end standalone preamps. It's just a simple fact.

Every piece of gear has its place. We need the FW1884's of the world for what they do, but when the search for audio perfection takes us higher we need to substitute better gear for certain parts of the audio chain. I totally understand what the original poster is going for, and I think it is attainable.
 
speaking of the pre's. I forgot to mention i got a dozen outboard pre's i use......i never use the tascams.. i was just speaking of the a/d aspect of using it as a soundcard. i would never settle for the pre's on the 1082 if i had another option imo. sonic hit the nail on the head on with his first post about pre's next on your list. I have learned alot form sonic and i trust his input;)
 
LemonTree said:
the problem with listening to audio clips of different convertors is, they are al only ever gonna sound as good as the ones you're listening through. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Possibly, and is it true to the same extent for every end user that hears anyone's work?
Personally, I have little interest in the various 'clip comparisons' (vs 'hands-on. Even ones for mics where differences are rather great give at best a picture of relative difference. That's not to say the differences don't add up and mater. And the info is there (as well as a specific forum.
 
wow! excellent feedback guys. thanks so much!!

question for FW-1082 users...

how can you bypass the factory pres? if you patch in with an outboard pre you are still hitting the Tascam pre aren't you? do you use the channel inserts for this?

also, does anyone here know of some training videos for tracking, mixing, etc. that are NOT product specific? I have the UA video and it's excellent but it gets a bit tedious at times with all the product promotion. more videos I've found have been for Pro Tools and I use Reaper.

thanks again!!

Rich
 
someone requested an example of what I'm working on...here's a song I recently wrote and recorded. i did all the tracks and used drums on demand sample for backup. it's still a "demo" and not intended to be a finished product but I'd like to do better.

any feedback is welcome. it might sting a bit but I can handle it ;)



thanks again for the excellent feedback guys...

Rich
 
RandyW said:
According to black lions website the motu's use AKM convertors
as well as RME, Digidesign, etc
Click to expand...

thank you for making my point !!! though it's not what you intended....


AKM chips are used in a variety of devices... and places like black lion would be outof business if not for 2 things... AKM's chips aren't all the same... and there's more to convertors than simply which chip is used.... for instance the clock chip and it's associated circuitry... and what they do to the analog portion pre-conversion...

as relates to the tascam... i've researched it pretty extensively as i wanted to perhaps work up an upgrade for my 1884.... and there is NO better pincompatable chip available.... as to the clock... i'm kinda active on the tascam users site and a guy not too long ago was upset when advised he might need a better clock source... he spen all this dough on an appogee and felt there was NO difference... so the clock must have been done right....
there's some argument to be made on the analog side... the pre-amps consist of two pairs of transistors followed by njm4580 op-amps... a good generic op-amp to be sure but there's way better so ya might want to think about upgrading those if ya want something to do... it does require some adaptation though as there aren't any better options in a sip style chip... wish the japs would stop useing this style everybody else has... need more info???? pm me and i'll see if i can hook you up...
 
blue4u said:
how can you bypass the factory pres? if you patch in with an outboard pre you are still hitting the Tascam pre aren't you? do you use the channel inserts for this?
Click to expand...


by useing the insert you avoid one op-amp stage and the trim controll thats all... as i mentioned above that one op-amp isn't stellar but it aint that bad either... i would Much rather have the use of the trim and gain the balanced input than avoid one amp stage and go unbalanced in.... YMMV...
 
blue4u said:
wow! excellent feedback guys. thanks so much!!

question for FW-1082 users...

how can you bypass the factory pres? if you patch in with an outboard pre you are still hitting the Tascam pre aren't you? do you use the channel inserts for this?

also, does anyone here know of some training videos for tracking, mixing, etc. that are NOT product specific? I have the UA video and it's excellent but it gets a bit tedious at times with all the product promotion. more videos I've found have been for Pro Tools and I use Reaper.

thanks again!!

Rich
Click to expand...

I have a FW-1082 which I've only used a couple times. But I believe there are only 4 pres on it and 4 line in's. I would just hook up your ext preamps to those. I find the built in pres kind of whimpy in the gain department and also
get annoyed with the vibrating motorized faders on it. Just curious if you have a fader that does this "pulsates for about a second" on your 1082, I've heard
they all do it.
 
No vibrating faders yet. Yes, the preamps are whimpy. There are 4 XLRs and 4 1/4 inch but in all I believe there are 8 pres. Interesting point though. Do you think the pres on the 1/4 inch are different from the XLR pres? Better or worse? My guess is that they are the same.

Rich
 
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