How do I convince my drummer to learn a good rimshot technique?

Herm... don't you think that a pro MD CAN tell the difference between a rimshot and a regular hit?
Learning how to do it is a must if you wanna be a pro, or if you just wanna provide the music what the music needs... It's not that complicated... Learn how to do it, and then choose when to do it...

BTW, in a rock/pop/metal/funk gig... Would you use rimshots or not?
 
Well you have me there cause I am to old to have played in this style.
I will have to admit this kind of music is not my style. And really dont use much in the way of rimshots but.
Now to put it into perspective lets hear from guitar players about the tone of the guitars, The bass and the vocals and tell me that the snare is as big a deal to fix as any of the rest of the song. Then we can go back to the snare and work on it.

I hope that makes sense
 
JuliánFernández said:
Herm... don't you think that a pro MD CAN tell the difference between a rimshot and a regular hit?
Learning how to do it is a must if you wanna be a pro, or if you just wanna provide the music what the music needs... It's not that complicated... Learn how to do it, and then choose when to do it...

BTW, in a rock/pop/metal/funk gig... Would you use rimshots or not?
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I don't think anyone is really saying you should never rimshot, or not even know how (this guy probably knows how, but doesn't do it constant). They are saying that constant rimshot isn't recessary. So what if many/most pros do. You can still get a great sound without, leaving you the option for accents (dynamics!).

Most bands don't really care about dynamics, as can be seen in mastering, where they just squash ever bit of dynamism out of it for more volume. That is the way i see constant rimshotting, trying to get the most volume without dynamics.

The rimshot definitely has it's place in most styles of music. I just don't agree that it should be used constantly throughout every song(of certain styles).
 
Man, you´re just wrong thinking about rimshots = no dynamics. It´s just not true...

On first place you can hit rimshots at differents volumens, and -like I said- believe it or not, it´s how most pop/rock/metal music is played...

Every drummer can decide to use it or not... It doesn´t matter.

But don´t get confuse with the Volume War and hitting a snare properly... Two separate things.

JMHO. :D
 
JuliánFernández;2996654 said:
Man, you´re just wrong thinking about rimshots = no dynamics. It´s just not true...

On first place you can hit rimshots at differents volumens, and -like I said- believe it or not, it´s how most pop/rock/metal music is played...

Every drummer can decide to use it or not... It doesn´t matter.

But don´t get confuse with the Volume War and hitting a snare properly... Two separate things.

JMHO. :D
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I know that you can have different volumes, but you can have much more dynamics with both rimshots and non-rimshots than just constant rimshots. I'm not confusing the two, I'm saying that i see constant rimshots similarly to volume war.

I do use rimshots but I prefer to keep them for accents, even accents at quieter levels. I don't care that many other drummers like to use them constantly(and i wouldn't call it "hitting the snare properly"). I can still get professional results without and don't see it as necessary. I infact see it as limiting. I don't really care that you don't agree, I'm just giving my opinion as have you.
 
I never use them unless i miss hit. I used to try and use them every hit when I played in a punky style band but now I hate them. I really dissagree that every rock drummer rimshots every hit, that is just not true. rimshots sound great in jazz, african style etc as accents. but every fucking hit on a whole fucking album where the guitars are at 10 all the way through with a pussy kid whaling all the way through it, well. not for me.

anyway, stop critising your drummers technique. you heard him before he joined yes?
 
No problem, panda... You can have your opinion for sure.

Let me say that if you think rimshots are only for accents, you´re missing something... But I bet you´ll re-discover rimshots someday and realize that´s not something to argue about.

But hey, it´s your time...

I´m not trying to argue for the sake of arguing... When I developed a nice rimshot technique I grew a lot as a drummer, and I started to work more stadly.

BTW, Can you tell a drummer that you like that don´t use rs on a regular basis?
 
It's semantics...........

JuliánFernández said:
No problem, panda... You can have your opinion for sure.

Let me say that if you think rimshots are only for accents, you´re missing something... But I bet you´ll re-discover rimshots someday and realize that´s not something to argue about.

But hey, it´s your time...

I´m not trying to argue for the sake of arguing... When I developed a nice rimshot technique I grew a lot as a drummer, and I started to work more stadly.

BTW, Can you tell a drummer that you like that don´t use rs on a regular basis?
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I think that you are both saying essentially the same thing. It's always about dynamics and the use of different voices for different parts of the music.
I also am annoyed and bored with rock drummers that play ONLY rimshots on every note of the snare. Show me one GREAT drummer that does that.
It's always about dynamics and variety.
 
I don't think anyone is saying 100% of great drummers play 100% rimshots 100% of the time. That would just be ridiculous!

What has been said (and for the most part is true) is that 90% of pro drummers use a rimshot for playing a hard backbeat on 2 and 4. Its very common practice.
 
Of course, man...

We´re talking about 2 & 4... It´s was pretty obvious to me.

It´s almost imposible to do 32nd notes with rimshots...

I thought we were talking about the groove, not the fills... ;)
 
mrhotapples said:
My band's drummer is weird. He's got good hands and he hits hard, but he never rimshots unless it's during a roll. His snare sounds choked and lifeless, no matter what, and I'm sure it's a combination of him tightening the stand too much and not rimshotting.

He says that if he does rimshots, he'll tear sticks up like crazy, but that's cool, we can buy more sticks. How should I go about convincing him that he'll sound a lot better if he'll play his snare different? We play a lot of aggressive stuff and he tunes his snare really tight, it sounds awful without rim to me.
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This is something end up being terribly passionate about...being an engineer, but firstly a studio drummer myself....


This ends up being a finesse/technique issue. Jimmy Chamberlin from smashing pumpkins is a perfect example of this situation. Half the time, he's hitting the snare dead center (no rimshot) and the other half he's hitting the rim full-time. Except when he does it, he's got power behind his stroke. I personally think when it's done right, it offers a chance to offer diversity in the songwriting process.

However, at that point, it ends up being a micing and more importantly a tuning/technique issue. They feed off each other....

without a properly tuned and full bodied snare, your regular stroke hit doesn't translate into a solid hit. I have this issue in the studio with drummers who have great energy, but end up having a feather touch on the snare. That or thier snares are tuned so tightly and so poorly that it just dosn't work for micing purposes.

I mean if it's Jazz, then that's appropriate, I mean you want that occasional spice between rim shot and light flubs. There's really no need for excessive tightening of the snare head.

But if you're talking heavy music, then that technique becomes a major flaw. Without a strong and defined beat to anchor the weight of your music, you have zero impact as a whole. That's just how that translates.

Your guitars may be on fire, your bass tight and round, but then here comes this drummer that sounds shy on the snare (however you paint it), and you just lost your 2 and your 4. Suddenly it feels half anchored.

It's why I thoroughly enjoy recording a drummer that understands how the physics behind studio technique vs live technique translates onto tape.


So in other words, unless you're going to rely on your live/studio engineers to compensate for his feather touch on the snare, I really think it sounds like he needs to emphasize his technique and work on getting that left hand stroke (if he's a right handed) stronger. It doesn't matter how he paints his argument, if his snare stroke is weak, the style of music calls for stronger technique. That's the bottom line.
 
Been playing punk and metal drums for about 22 years (self tought) and I have never intentionally done a rim shot...I have never liked the sound of Rim shots , they sound ? I don"t know , not very heavey or rockin....To me they are only good for accenting Punch lines in Jokes...

I recently decided I didn"t like my Snare sound , there wasn"t enough "Crack" to it so i tried one of those huge wide strainers...Man what a differance ,It really brings the Volume of the drum up and really adds a good crack and pressence.....Might be something you might want to try if you haven"t allready....Also instead of Raiseing/Lowering the snare so he has more room to give it a good whack when his arm"s are crossed maybe try raiseing/Lowering the Hi-hat....


Cheers

:D
 
PhilGood said:
I don't think anyone is saying 100% of great drummers play 100% rimshots 100% of the time. That would just be ridiculous!

What has been said (and for the most part is true) is that 90% of pro drummers use a rimshot for playing a hard backbeat on 2 and 4. Its very common practice.
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JuliánFernández said:
No problem, panda... You can have your opinion for sure.

Let me say that if you think rimshots are only for accents, you´re missing something... But I bet you´ll re-discover rimshots someday and realize that´s not something to argue about.

But hey, it´s your time...

I´m not trying to argue for the sake of arguing... When I developed a nice rimshot technique I grew a lot as a drummer, and I started to work more stadly.

BTW, Can you tell a drummer that you like that don´t use rs on a regular basis?
Click to expand...
I'm also not saying that constant rimshots shouldn't be used for a loud chorus or whatever, just that it's not necessary throughout a whole song(unless the song requires it) and even a whole genre.

I could play rishots constantly without a problem, they're easy enough, but i like them for accents and obviously loud choruses, etc.

I don't really listen to many drummers. I don't really listen to much music tbh. I'm too busy focussed on my business(studio, etc.), my playing and teaching drums. I don't really care what every drummer from and emo, punk, metal, rock, etc drummer does. I don't do constant rimshots and i still get a decent sound, imo.

I think this drummer could get more crack from his snare without constant rimshots, so i haven't recommended them. If the drummer decides to change then that's his decision, it's not mine, yours, or the OP. We can only advise.
 
LeeRosario said:
This is something end up being terribly passionate about...being an engineer, but firstly a studio drummer myself....


This ends up being a finesse/technique issue. Jimmy Chamberlin from smashing pumpkins is a perfect example of this situation. Half the time, he's hitting the snare dead center (no rimshot) and the other half he's hitting the rim full-time. Except when he does it, he's got power behind his stroke. I personally think when it's done right, it offers a chance to offer diversity in the songwriting process.

However, at that point, it ends up being a micing and more importantly a tuning/technique issue. They feed off each other....

without a properly tuned and full bodied snare, your regular stroke hit doesn't translate into a solid hit. I have this issue in the studio with drummers who have great energy, but end up having a feather touch on the snare. That or thier snares are tuned so tightly and so poorly that it just dosn't work for micing purposes.

I mean if it's Jazz, then that's appropriate, I mean you want that occasional spice between rim shot and light flubs. There's really no need for excessive tightening of the snare head.

But if you're talking heavy music, then that technique becomes a major flaw. Without a strong and defined beat to anchor the weight of your music, you have zero impact as a whole. That's just how that translates.

Your guitars may be on fire, your bass tight and round, but then here comes this drummer that sounds shy on the snare (however you paint it), and you just lost your 2 and your 4. Suddenly it feels half anchored.

It's why I thoroughly enjoy recording a drummer that understands how the physics behind studio technique vs live technique translates onto tape.


So in other words, unless you're going to rely on your live/studio engineers to compensate for his feather touch on the snare, I really think it sounds like he needs to emphasize his technique and work on getting that left hand stroke (if he's a right handed) stronger. It doesn't matter how he paints his argument, if his snare stroke is weak, the style of music calls for stronger technique. That's the bottom line.
Click to expand...
I very much agree!
 
Minion said:
Been playing punk and metal drums for about 22 years (self tought) and I have never intentionally done a rim shot...I have never liked the sound of Rim shots , they sound ? I don"t know , not very heavey or rockin....To me they are only good for accenting Punch lines in Jokes...

I recently decided I didn"t like my Snare sound , there wasn"t enough "Crack" to it so i tried one of those huge wide strainers...Man what a differance ,It really brings the Volume of the drum up and really adds a good crack and pressence.....Might be something you might want to try if you haven"t allready....Also instead of Raiseing/Lowering the snare so he has more room to give it a good whack when his arm"s are crossed maybe try raiseing/Lowering the Hi-hat....


Cheers

:D
Click to expand...
I suggested moving the hi-hat nearer the first tom so he isn't crossing his hands (or by as much anyway). This allows him to lift his left hand above the right arm (even up past his ear) and avoid hitting it.

I do like rimshots, but only when i feel they are required. You can get a really nice accent with them, but i'd never recommend using them throughout a song/genre.
 
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