Recording electric guitar directly to a Tascam

Jeff R 50

New member
Hello, I have a question: I am more of a keyboard guy but I have been trying to record electric guitar tracks into my DP32 SD without much success. I don't have an amp (I play and record through headphones) but I am using a string of Boss effect pedals for overdrive, compression, reverb, delay, etc. and then I just plug this all directly into the DP32 SD. The sound quality I get is very thin and lacking something. Does using a mic and an amp really make that much difference? Could I use some type of amp modelling effect box to achieve the same sound as an amp? I don't understand why the guitar would sound that much different by using an mic/amp vs. plugging direct into the recorder. Any advice would be appreciated. Thank you. Jeff R.
 
The main reason is that most guitar amp speakers are what we would call woofers in any other context. They don't pass frequencies above like 5K very much if at all. If you just low pass the track around there, it'll probably sound a whole lot better. Won't be as good as a proper speaker simulator, but maybe good enough? But yeah, you should look at an amp sim of some sort. If you're on a budget and want to stay in the pedal factor, I recommend the Behringer clone of the SansAmp GT2 TM300 Tube Amp Modeler, but there are literally hundreds of options.
 
With a amp, what we hear is the speaker. And it has a level of sensitivity - like different keybeds. Modeling might not do the sensitivity real well, but its good enough.

The Behringer looks interesting. I have a older version on the GM108 amp. My main modeling pedal is the ToneLab ST and it has output switches to match what you want to plug it in to. My last modeling amp has USB, but the headphone jack would work going into a recorder.

So, going into a recorder, I can also use my amps with line out and I have two soaks that take the speaker out of amps and provide a line out.

There are a lot of modelers, take your pick : )
 
Thanks ashcat_It, I actually do have a Behringer tube amp modeller pedal but to be honest, I could never tell much difference in what comes out of that pedal from what I get from a Boss distortion or overdrive pedal. They all seem to produce a similar effect. I guess I'm looking to "fatten up" the sound of the electric guitar to give it more of a studio recording sound. Every other instrument I play and record in the Tascam DP32 sounds great but not electric guitars for some reason. I appreciative the reply. Thanks.
 
Thank you for the info garww. I do have an old Behringer tube amp modeller pedal but I don't think it does much to improve my sound. Maybe I just need to find a better modeller pedal? I do appreciate your response. Thanks
 
Garww, Yeah I guess I did. Your reply kind of confused me... You talked about using amps but then you talked about using one of many different modeller that are out there. Aren't those 2 completely different setups? Thank you
 
You missed the point of the speaker modeling
Since I'm not a true guitarist, are you saying that you need to use a tube amp simulator pedal AND and amplifier too? I thought the purpose of a amp simulator/modeling pedal was to take the place of using an amp. I guess this is where my confusion lies.
 
The everyday guitar pedals are for guitar amplifiers. We are already stuck with the sound of the speaker, but we can make the amp sound different. The gm108 is a little amp with three sliding switches to muck things up - basic amp type, gain, and speaker. The little ToneLab pedal has 11 "cab" types.
 

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Since I'm not a true guitarist, are you saying that you need to use a tube amp simulator pedal AND and amplifier too? I thought the purpose of a amp simulator/modeling pedal was to take the place of using an amp. I guess this is where my confusion lies.

You have to look out for what the simulation is - tube amp pedal may just be tubes
 
I'm not familiar that amp sim pedal, but it may have a speaker simulator built in that can be shut off. If yours is shut off, it will sound a lot like a normal distortion pedal.

You need to find the speaker simulator and turn it on.

The other distortion and overdrive pedals were designed to feed a guitar amp, so they are only half the sound.
 
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A couple more thoughts...

You might try using the internal insert guitar effects that are built in to the DP. They are almost certain to sound better than what you're using with external pedals. Just make sure you use input H and set the input switch for Hi-Z guitar input.

If you've got $150.00 laying around get yourself a Digitech RP360 and set it for direct input mode. This simulates an amp... and you'll have more to choose from than you can probably imagine.

A $39.00 Behringer DI might also be an alternative.

A guitar through floor pedals and direct in is certain to sound thin and crappy.

Good luck!
 
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The effect boxes almost certainly are affecting the impedance level combined with the padding of Tascam's High-Z guitar input making your signal strength "very thin."

Check with Tascam, who are good about responding on customer's issues; if I may emphasize, I would contact them before doing anything else in order to make sure not to damage the unit by trying to get around the issue--it can be overcame but let them provide details. You've got $500 plus in your 32 track unit: Don't be like me and think the problem is solved on paper only to damage equipment instead in application of a solution. I always contact any manufacturer on issues of potential ruin if not done correctly; I can say I have always been contacted back by email on an issue by any manufacturer.

On amp modeling (cabinet modeling as what you will find typically it designated in literature), you may want to consider a used Roland GR-55 guitar sythn unit, which has a vast array of cabinet and guitar modeling selections, all your effects, and, of course, you get a guitar sythn that has supreme instrument reproduction and opportunity to create unique effects. These run about $500 to $575 used, about $800 new--I see used ones in the aforementioned price range all the time on a major guitar retailer site. See several YouTube videos for effects as well as sythn capacity-not sure if there what there YouTubes are on cabinets and guitar modeling with GR-55 (never looked), but you can download the list of all presets from Roland. By the way, your Tascam has a guitar modeling library; not sure if cabinets, too. I have the DP24SD.

Of important note, the blue GR-55 had some issue when first issued; look for a black one. I was told this personally by a factory rep, who also said the issue had been resolved, which is fine if buying new. The used prices are the same, slightly more blue ones sold. Additionally, you'll need the GK-3 pickup that may or may not be sold with the used unit but is needed, or bought new for a couple hundred--I'd wait until found since people sale the GK-3 often with the units and the price isn't jacked, maybe $25 ($575, or less). (The GK-3 pickup and jack unit are easily mounted, see YouTube).

On amps, you may want to consider the legendary Pig Nose, which Clapton used on an album as have other major artists . . . oh, yes, the price for this small amp new is about $100 if including cord. Plays clean to dirty simply by volume control (combination of balancing guitar volume and amp level, if I understand correctly per desired sound), not built in effects (see YouTube on how to control tonal properties). It possibly might, not sure, be able to be used with effects, but the sound is so diverse you may dig its range of dynamics by itself.

About mics, while tonal quality is a personal taste, as I am someone on a progressing entry level, I have found that it is important for those beginning to learn of recording to know that the response signal is flat, meaning that no dips or peaks are unwantedly is occurring, unless intentionally for special application, like drum mic'ing. With a flat mic signal, if there is something that you are getting unexpectedly in certain ranges, you'll know it is not the mic beyond placement--remember, flat does not in any way mean boring--easily confused; it means the mic'ing response that a mic can achieve that is closest to recording what there is to hear.

Rode makes the NT1 condenser mic, which has a perfectly flat line 30Hz to 12K response with a gentle roll off; moreover, its self-noise is among lowest available: Used at $150-175, with needed shock mount to minimize vibration. In a world of a couple thousand dollar mics, this mic is extremely good for instruments or vocals--nothing close to it in specs for price. To contrast this point, I have a low-priced Marantz with a self-noise of 19dB as opposed to the 4.5 dB of the Rode NT1.

Beyerdynamic makes a $350 (approximate new price) dynamic mic with an equally flat signal as the Rode NT1 condenser. What is the difference? One of the major retailer's online has a well rounded collection of articles and glossary of technical terms. I am sure there are other resources similar; unfortunately, I am unsure if it is within forum protocol to mention retailers; however, since there are only a handful of major retailers online, if you would like to search for their collection it is called InSync. It has a lot of recording articles as well as other topics that are easy to understanding; it is meant to educate the consumer, so its level of communication is for entry to intermediate to sometimes advanced.

Don't ruin that Tascam, looking forward to hearing some joyful sounds.

By the way, a production company called ProAudio offers an instructional Tascam 32 DVD (not SD but usable for newer models); it can be purchased on Tascam's website, but found cheaper elsewhere. The sound engineer who had instructed on the DVD has worked with major talent; he has also produced a 3 DVD on recording and mixing--a bit expensive, but based on the content of the DP24 video, I am excited about getting into that material.

Respectfully, JeffF.
 
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The effect boxes almost certainly are affecting the impedance level
LOL. Care to explain that there?

The behringer tube amp pedal (if it's the one I'm thinking of) has the same switches as the amp garrww posted, which are the same as the SansAmp GT2 which is actually a pretty convincing little pedal considering it's over 20 years old and completely analog. I used the SansAmp -recorded and live - for years. I'm a bit concerned that the OP can't hear the difference between that and a pedal distortion. Pedal distortions almost always sound thin and nasty on their own, and sometimes even when run through real amps. You really should be able to get something pretty decent out of that amp sim, though.

We don't actually know anything about the guitar itself. If you're trying to get "meat" out of light-wound single coil in the bridge position, you're gonna have an uphill battle no matter what you plug it into. String gauge and action also play into it. Then there's the performer who has admitted to not actually being a guitarist. I can see (have seen) a keyboardist timidly and hesitantly strumming something he barely understands sounding like a plastic shopping bag even with the fanciest guitar and amp. It's an overused cliche, but tone really does start with your hands.
 
We don't actually know anything about the guitar itself. If you're trying to get "meat" out of light-wound single coil in the bridge position, you're gonna have an uphill battle no matter what you plug it into. String gauge and action also play into it. Then there's the performer who has admitted to not actually being a guitarist. I can see (have seen) a keyboardist timidly and hesitantly strumming something he barely understands sounding like a plastic shopping bag even with the fanciest guitar and amp. It's an overused cliche, but tone really does start with your hands.
Also, if the OP isn't a guitarist, he might not be clued in on the fact that just any guitar through any amp (sim) won't necessarily create the guitar sound he has in his head. There is a big difference between Nile Rodgers tone in Le Freak and the tone on Type O Negative albums, and they employ completely different tools.
 
For ashcat_It and community: Yes, sir: I will lend what I can of insight upon what I believe is largely an impedance related issue. First, thanks for the insights you contributed on this subject--very insightful, especially on the type of pick up impacting sound dynamics--I may want to try guitar modeling (from my Tascam preset library) with my Ovation (with silk wound steel strings), so this is a valuable point I can use.

In response to your inquiry, the O/P of effects--that is to say, mine anyway--have a high in/low output impedance; several boxes in series, combined with the High-Z input, as of course properly switched for guitar not mic level, I suspect are dramatically padding his guitar's normally hot signal, as even pre-amped acoustical guitars must use the High-Z guitar selection input, according to my Tascam DP24SD manual.

One seemingly reasonable way--correct me, please, on any point of this suggestion--how to find out would be to run the guitar by itself into the High-Z input (switched for guitar rather than mic level, as a personal reminder), set the guitar volume to mid range--no less--and increase the gain (via Trim control on the Tascam) until barely clipping. (For this test, I would want to see it peaking just into into red, so increasing guitar volume level if not peaking with full gain tried may be needed--while playing normally in tone, building on your point of tonal control and sound dynamics. Too much signal strength, strong clipping, via controls, however, and it might not be well seen of the signal unwantedly drop of input while preforming the next step, if padding is indeed occurring.) Once, the signal is set in this "just clipping" fashion, he could start adding effects one by one: If the input LEDs start dropping toward what would be considered a weak signal strength this would suggest the I/O signal is being inadvertently padded (as above described) to a "very thin" level, which I take to mean signal strength.

If this is the case, then a multieffects box may, which may also have cabinet/guitar modeling, may have far less impedance than several effect boxes in series, but this would be something for another to comment upon in experience. (Of note for the gentleman, the solution is not to plug into the mic-line input even if the guitar signal is being greatly padded.)

He also asked why the signal is stronger mic'ing than direct I/P. Especially if the above condition is occurring, dB's picked up through a mic on an amp even at low volume would have a stronger mic-line level than the severely padded direct input.

I always find your comments, ashcat_It, relating points not readily considered, which is greatly helpful in expanding a fuller view of things, for which I am grateful. With highest regard, JeffF.
 
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Hi Jeff. having read al the replies to this, nobody has mentioned the guitar itself. Have you heard it through an amp of any sort? There are things with guitars that can cause very thin sound, like dodgy wiring inside it, or bad pots/capacitors etc. With the guitar plugged straight into an amp. you would hear any losses straight away. The order in which you use the pedals may also affect the sound, as well as the cables used in between them. it would only take one poor cable to destroy the sound.
 
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