Mastering advice please...

glynb

Balladeer
OK here's what I plan.

I use a Fostex vf160 for recording and mixing, then plan to add the final gloss to the songs using Soundforge v6 with Wavehammer.

I'm a newcomer to this software. Cabn anyone advise on what the steps are to 'master' my recordings using Soundforge.

What I want to achieve is a 'louder' sound without destroying the dynamics. We are talking acoustic based pop/rock not heavy metal or anything - I suppose if pressed I'd say the stuff is a bit like The Flaming Lips.

You can skip the exporting as a wav file bit as I know how to do that, its just what to do to the stereo master whilst in Soundforge that i need advice on.

I should add the master plan is to produce my own CD album (say 500 copies for giveaway) a 'pro' product as possible.
 
You might as well not do anything in SF6. Any short comings of your mixes because of monitoring environment will translate into SF6. If you have to use SF6 for additional editing/sweetening, make sure your using a differnt monitoring environment than when you mixed, sometimes that means moving your speakers/amp and PC to the largest, highest ceiling room you can get into. Then make sure you listening from about 12 feet from your speakers. For processing, the easiest is to use a chain like eq, compress, and limit in that order. SF has a plug called Track EQ and works really easy. Use your ear to determine the balance of those tools, keep your peaks around -3db and youll be loud enough without being too loud. Without hearing it, this is the only place to start.

SoMm
 
I'd suggest trying some different ideas using sound forge, making some test CD's and playing them in as many environments and situations as possible, and comparing them to similar music for texture and volume.

I don't like wave hammer much but for certain mixes, it's pretty handy.
 
glynb said:
...What I want to achieve is a 'louder' sound without destroying the dynamics...
Generally what you'll be looking for here are the short transient peaks that you feel can be taken off the top end of the dynamics while doing the minimum amount of damage to your songs. That gets you some latitude in adjusting their average levels up (or down if some of the mixes are a lot more compressed that others).

Son of Mixerman, is there any reason why he shouldn't go on up?
I useually go for -.3 just for a bit of safety margin.
Thanks.
Wayne
 
Re: Re: Mastering advice please...

mixsit said:
G
Son of Mixerman, is there any reason why he shouldn't go on up?
I useually go for -.3 just for a bit of safety margin.
Thanks.
Wayne

In alot of cases the difference between rms and peak values give you an indication of how much dynamics there are in a song. If your peaking at .3 awfully close to clipping and since many peak meters and VU meters have a tolerance of plus of minus 1.5 db its very possible your clipping the transients. It may not seem noticable depending on the playback system. To me -3db sounds loud and yet retains alot of openess by allowing things to breath. Its a delicate balance that you learn through experimentation. I recently mastered a Nu metal band and I pushed to close to digital zero just as a lets see what happens. I have a older cd player than doesn't like muic thats been pushed to hard. I burned a ref and the cd player wouldn't play. Played it in 3 other players and it worked. I then did a load in of the ref and put in CEP since it has different metering and voila, I was banging in the red door. Why Wavelab let me burn that ref is a mystery. I have a friend who gave me a CD Architect 5.0 copy and I did a load in again from the ref and it actually prompted me after it made the image that there was digital clipping. I call a -3bd peak a margin of safety to account for system calibration and for metering tolerance issues.
I recently did a premastering job for a violinist and initially I gave the client a ref disc that a ran a T-Racks preset on. She wanted something for the car on the way home before she came back to do more recording. Since she is my mother in law I thought I could get away with it. She was running late and wanted something in 5 minutes...well she got a preset that was basically a bump on the top and bottom with some limiting trying to pull it up. Sounded like crap when I listened to what I gave her. Shame on me. Well, its good she was happy with it, but I think the raw tracks sounds better. She said it was perfect and that it being overdone and louder than Vlado that she could listen to it over traffic on the freeway. I got fricking lucky and learned not to do quickies for anyone for any reason.

Sorry it was a long post.

SoMm
 
Re: Re: Re: Mastering advice please...

Son of Mixerman said:
....If your peaking at .3 awfully close to clipping and since many peak meters and VU meters have a tolerance of plus of minus 1.5 db its very possible your clipping the transients.
SoMm
Does this come up with the digi peak meters in the editing programs? My Sonar meters line up pretty well with the L2 box. But maybe I just got lucky.

"Sorry it was a long post."
IMHO there never long when their good.
:)
Wayne
 
"Generally what you'll be looking for here are the short transient peaks that you feel can be taken off the top end of the dynamics while doing the minimum amount of damage to your songs. That gets you some latitude in adjusting their average levels up (or down if some of the mixes are a lot more compressed that others)."

Yes, i think that's exactly what I want to do. So what are the steps to achieve this in Soundforge? Is there a menu choice that will do this? Or do i have to go into each 'transient' peak, select it and then reduce the volume on it individualy before carrying out the normalizing?

Alternatively do i just go into Wavehammer and choose 'normalize to -3db' sit back and let it do it for me and it will automaticaly remove the clipping peaks?

Idealy I want to choose a menu option which will normalize up to a certain level (-3db as recomended) but see any 'clips' and reduce them down for me without user intervention. Will waveheammer do this, which is the tool to select?

Once I've done this step are there any other 'mastering' techniques i could use in Soundforge?

Sorry for the basic questions but I'm new to all this!
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Mastering advice please...

mixsit said:
Does this come up with the digi peak meters in the editing programs? My Sonar meters line up pretty well with the L2 box. But maybe I just got lucky.

"Sorry it was a long post."
IMHO there never long when their good.
:)
Wayne

I think you got lucky. The metering between Wavlab and CD Architect 5 is different, but CEP2.0 and CD Architect line up pretty well. Its just a matter of calibration. Most folks don't want to spend the time. Since I use several different packages to support business partners I have to recalibrate the console whether Im adding tracks to CEP2 work or 2 trk transfers to wavlab for premasters. No biggie really because I have to make sure the R2R is calibrated to the console and the console to the PC.

As far as using the Normalizing function I wouldn't use that approach. This link http://www.nthelp.com/mastering/faq.htm help folks understand from a professionals standpoint why with more authority than I have.
Its a good FAQ for anyone just learning about this kind of thing.

SoMm
 
<<"Generally what you'll be looking for here are the short transient peaks that you feel can be taken off the top end of the dynamics while doing the minimum amount of damage to your songs. That gets you some latitude in adjusting their average levels up (or down if some of the mixes are a lot more compressed that others)."

Yes, i think that's exactly what I want to do. So what are the steps to achieve this in Soundforge? Is there a menu choice that will do this? Or do i have to go into each 'transient' peak, select it and then reduce the volume on it individualy before carrying out the normalizing? >>

Glynb. I was refering to running each track through a peak limiter. You would either record the new limited versions to a new track or perhaps use a 'bounce' or 'apply the effect' function. But make copies of the tracks first to work from if your not sure. 'Apply' for example kills the original.

<<Alternatively do i just go into Wavehammer and choose 'normalize to -3db' sit back and let it do it for me and it will automaticaly remove the clipping peaks?>>

The limiter pulls down the peaks, 'normalize' is just a volume change.

<<Idealy I want to choose a menu option which will normalize up to a certain level (-3db as recomended) but see any 'clips' and reduce them down for me without user intervention. Will waveheammer do this, which is the tool to select?>>

Hopefully someone with soundfordge will jump in here. Presumably you could use the normalize function with different target settings to adjust the RELATIVE song volumes, but remember, it's only looking at the peaks. Use your ears to set 'loudness'.
Wayne
 
I think I get it!

Ok thanks,

So if I got this right I first go into Soundforge and apply a limiter to cut those peaks down to say -3db then go into the Normalize function and normalize up to 3db -the result will be a louder mix mix no peak going above -3db....


Hmmm....can't be that simple!

Guess I'll have to just have a play and trust my ears!
 
Re: I think I get it!

glynb said:
Ok thanks,

So if I got this right I first go into Soundforge and apply a limiter to cut those peaks down to say -3db then go into the Normalize function and normalize up to 3db -the result will be a louder mix mix no peak going above -3db....


Hmmm....can't be that simple!

Guess I'll have to just have a play and trust my ears!

Typical chain is EQ, Compress and then limit and dither last.
If you use the tools properly you will never touch normalizing functions. Its best learn how to use the tools I noted in the typical chain, sometimes using several small steps of compression is better and more subtle. So one of the tricks Ive been doing is using the Soundforge Soft limiter preset right after the compressor and then tweak from there to get the desired sound. Sometimes the soft limiter never engages which is what I prefer.

By the way, I recently learned from Bob Katz that the Wavelab meter is 3db off because of calibration being done via sinewave verses rms. Im having a 3rd party look into verifying the results.

SoMm
 
mixsit said:
...<< The limiter pulls down the peaks, 'normalize' is just a volume change...>>
Glynb. I just saw a post over on RAP that refered to S/F's 'normalizing' as including some compression options. So I may be in Doo Doo on this one. Sorry 'bout that if I led you wrong.:)
Just to tag on to S.O.M.M's post...
The 'compression' options gererally get down a bit into the tracks inner dynamics (which can be a nice effect for increasing density, changing the feel on the mix). The limiting (can) be a way of just ridding the stray peaks. Both bring up reverbs, and stuff in the background.
Hope I helped.:D
Wayne
 
Got that...

Thanks mixit and SOMM - exactly the advice I needed.

The stuff about the chain was just the job and I'll give it a go.

When I tried Normalizing it did seem to distort the music somehow, hopefully subtle compression and limiting will be what I'm after.

You guys are very kind to share your knowlege with the rest of us.
 
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