Vocal Editing process

Thirst

New member
Hey howz it goin fellaz..? new ta hear so hear me out... My quality as of now is ok, its decent but i have the equipment to turn out a much better product.. Ive heard my friend who is a producer turn out some really good stuff and my setup is better then his.. I have the following for equipment

3.06Ghz pentium 4
1.4Gb Ram
sound blaster live 2 platinum sound card
Rode NT1 condensor mic
XLR monster cable
Event TR5 studio monitors w/ 1/4 " jacks
Bherenger mixer w/phantom power support
and cool edit

Now im positive the mistake is coming from my lack of knowledge in the mixing area because a friend wit tha same setup n computer half as good as mines turns out an almost flawless project. Now I do hiphop music, like i said my quality now is decent but Im sure it could be alot better.. Ive tried to find a how to on mixing n thingz of that nature, but ta no avail have turned up empty handed.. If anyone could help id be most appreciated... Thank you...
 
its not too obvious you listen to rap...anyway

what are the differences between your sounds and your friends sounds?
 
yes i do listen to hiphop music, is that a problem..? I dont see how that helps me.. The diffrences between mine and his are his voacals are alot crisper and clean sounding then mines are.. I just see alot of peoples music projects coming out good and I they cant be learning from trial and error it would take too long with so many settings.. Thanks again..
 
U gotta be more Specific. By crisper, do you mean that the highs stand out more? And by cleaner, do you mean you have noise on the tracks?
 
i thought i explained pretty well.. no i dont have noise in my trackz.. his tracks are just crisper, clearer, overalll a better vocal pressence then mines.. Mine sound a bit muffled compared to his... is this better..?
 
Guys, I'm the one who told him to come here and ask his questions. I thought this would be the best place for quality advice for him.

He's not being vague about anything... he just wants some general "Best practices" for mixing and mastering with Cool Edit. I can derive that from his first post.

I assume he'll get a much better response from dobro or Chrisjob...

Please respect people, even if they're different from you and your tastes...
 
Where's this disrespect, POETS? Certainly not from me. If you are reffering to what tom18222 and FattMusiek said, if you read carefully, they were only acknowleging what they observed. Thirst comes back on the defensive with "Is that a problem?" I ignored his attitude and knowing that there is no magical fix-all for a mix tried to get to the root of the problem by asking for clarification.

Attitude like that is very unproffessional. You want people to take you seriousely? Be serious. Next time, don't get so defensive. Most people here will help if you have patience


How many ways could you use the words "Crisp" and "Clear" in a sentense. These words have many definitions. Now that you've used "Muffled" (a word that cannot be confused in this context) I know exactly what your problem is. And mic placement, along with EQ'ing would probably fix your problem.

Now, try some forum and google searches on "mic placement" and "EQ" and start studying and experimenting. (You would also be wise to study compression techniques.)
 
ok as if it wasnt clear to you let me make it.. I came in here with no attitude what so ever..

Can u see these comments


its not too obvious you listen to rap...anyway

And Tom, the Z's give it away

when i get replies like those n nothing else i derive there is a problem.. yes I use Z's to substitute for s's sometimes but what would u think if u came into a forum saying u did country music n i said something like

yes its obvious u do country music.... anyway..

wtf is that shit about give me a break i got an attitude im humble.. But i do realize there are assholes over here that dont have respect for another type of music.. To them punk rock is the only thing that exits.. I didnt have an attitude.. Mic placement cannot be my problem, considering ive read articles on sound dynamics n mic placement the room where I record is sound proofed.. fully... not even ventalation in there, and yes i sweat like no body's business but it is just for my use so i choose to deal with it.. Now EQing would probably be where my problems lay, i have already read a couple of articles on compression about threshold, release, knee, attack etc etc.. but i feel my big problem lays in EQing, is there an article in or around this forum or would someone be able to elaborate for me..? thanx alot..
 
I think the point about the Z's was that that is a bit of a pretentious affectation donned, apparently, only by the hip-hop community. Kinda like spies wearing dark glasses. :cool: Either way, I know most of us here don't really care, and are open-minded enough to accept virtually any style of music.

Reading your latest point, I'm wondering if you room is "too dead." By that, I mean that you have sound absorption (commonly, but incorrectly referred to as sound-proofing) which results in a fairly "dead" sound. Frequencies that make something (ie. a voice) sound natural are absorbed, producing flatness where what you might really want is resonance - achieved largely by ensuring that frequencies are allowed to be "active." You can have a sound-proofed room with carefully controlled reflections that will be very natural sounding and still sound-proofed. Most of us can't afford that, though. :(

Maybe try stripping some of your absorbant materials from your walls (not all of it, of course....) and see if you like the results.

Your problem may well NOT be EQ-ing. I use a Behringer mixer (UB2442FX-PRO), and a Rode NT1 as my main vocal mic, and hardly EQ much at all. It is a rather bright and present mic, and tracks recorded with it typically cut through even a dense mix. (everyone's voice is different, though, of course, so this MAY not be the mic for you, or you MAY have to do more EQ-ing than most of us....)

So some research about absorption and acoustics. John Sayers is one of the gurus around here in that department. He hangs out a lot in the "studio building and display" forum.

Chris
 
Thirst, something that took me a long time...

....to realize about micing, after reading and experimenting (without method), and re-reading.......is that mic placement IS!! EQing.

If your getting a muffled sound lacking presence, it could be a couple of things....either on their own or combining.

If you need a less muffled sound you may try singing "under" the mic.....point the mic above your (or your vocalists) mouth.
When you point away from the chest you can take a little of the boominess off a voice, give the vocal a little more definition, and push the fader up a little more for more presence in the mix, and give the voice a little crisper edge.
Head for treble; chest for bass....so to speak.

Also the distance from the mic will add or subtract from the tone of the vocal because proximity effect.

And the angle of the mic can make a big difference.
Experiment with the mic angles as this will color and un-color the sound quite a bit depending on the mic.

You can deffinitely find a lot of EQing advice around here.
Use the SEARCH.
But start the EQing process at the source, then at the mic, then at the EQ. :)

Depending on how you lay down the instrumentation.....do you use samples and lay down the instrumentation "in the box" as in from the computer exclusively and rap over this????

I use ACID a lot for beats and rythm beds and stuff and its hard "matching" and blending the sound of mic'd vocals and guitar amps over stuff "from the box" so I run some of the computer tracks out to an amp or PA or even just the monitors and mic that and blend in with the other tracks.

I find its easier to mix with a little good air in there.

I think for getting vocals to sit in the mix, also, for me it's often times better to use EQ to carve out space in the instrument mix for the vocals than to try and sculpt the vocals to fit in a mix....especially if there is a lot going on in the mix.

Presence of any part of the mix also has a TON to do with the arrangement.
If the arrangement leaves space than your not competing for presence.

Lastly....sorry I ramble.......your equipment list mentions only the Berry mixer as far as pre-amps for the mic.
Pre-amps will make a big difference.
I have a Berry mixer and the pre's suck......of course you can throw money at anything and it wont neccessarily get you anywhere....but in this situation I think a decent pre-amp will help you a lot.
Do a search on that too.

O.K. I lied one more thing......If I understand correctly than Change Of Poets is your friend who is got the sound you like.
I would check his teqnique out as much as possible.

I listen to CD's and try and come up with something close to what I hear and like for particular sound or aspect of what I am trying to record...because I dont have many friends who actually record.

If you can actually observe someone making recordings with a sound you dig, and if this friend is willing to give up some of their trade secrets :) (assuming you live in same generall area)....THAT, my friend, is a VERY valuble resource which you may be able to take advantage of.

-mike
 
QUote: "I think for getting vocals to sit in the mix, also, for me it's often times better to use EQ to carve out space in the instrument mix for the vocals than to try and sculpt the vocals to fit in a mix....especially if there is a lot going on in the mix."

That's some very good advice, mike.

The only thing I can think of to add is that it is better to reduce the frequencies of the other instruments where the vocals will lie rather than just boost up parts of the vocals.

I think SteveG said this at the audiomasters forum: A 3dB cut of one frequency in an instrument to make room for a second instrument in that same frequency sounds the same to the human ear as a 6dB BOOST in the second instrument at that frequency. Steve went on to say that if you get a chance to look at a pros setup, you'll only rarely see anything but cuts on the eq's for this reason.

I listen to hiphop too, by the way. Aside from techno, that's all they play in the clubs here. The only rappin I really don't like is that shit that never lands on the beat, like the rapper isn't even listening to what he's rappin over.

Actually, I'll listen to about anything. As long as the music has a good beat and a melody or catchy bass line or something(hook), and isn't too repetetive or simple, I'll give it a listen.
 
Re: Thirst, something that took me a long time...

formerlyfzfile said:
[BLastly....sorry I ramble.......your equipment list mentions only the Berry mixer as far as pre-amps for the mic.
Pre-amps will make a big difference.
I have a Berry mixer and the pre's suck......[/B]

Mike - your post was filled with great advice. I just have to disagree with this point, as I use a Behringer mixer for my vocals now, and they don't come out muffled. I used to have an MX802A, which was usable, but I typically chose my Peavey TMP-1 tube pre (yes, the tubes ARE actually part of the circuit :rolleyes: ). I picked up the UB2442FX-PRO mixer a bit ago, and now choose IT over the Peavey for most applications.

My vocals don't come out muffled and I use an NT1 mic too.

Chris
 
Well, I was thinking more about the lack of presence...

.....as far as the Berry pre-amps.
The Berry pre's that I have on my 802 mixer make every thing sound very thin, and I cant really use more than 40% gain before I really hear them start to crap out.

I mean, I recently just got a DBX 286A (for $119) and its not super duper but it sounds better to me by a lot than the mixer, especially for vocals.....and for the money it has a simple compressor and enhancer.....kind of the channel strip approach.

I even like my AudioBuddy a lot better than the 802.....cleaner....not so great for vox, but better over all generally speaking.

I think your UB2442FX Pro mixer has different (better) pre's than my 1st generation 802 does though.


-mike
 
Yeah, the UB series pres are WAY better than the MX series ones. (I haven't been able to get as good a sound from my bass, even when plugged into an amp or a PA!!) The MX ones were a little lifeless, though, but they weren't bad.

Chris
 
This thread doesn't belong in this forum, but I'll leave it here cuz it has some integrity. It doesn't belong here because the problems thirst is having have nothing to do with cool edit.

The single most important element in getting good vocals is the quality of your mic, combined with experimenting to find the best position for it. If you're working that mic close up, the room is less important than if the mic's out there a foot. The pre's important too, but nowhere near as important as the mic.

Okay, having said that, there's stuff you can do in the mix with a vocal track recorded with a good mic to make it sound even fuller. You can boost 2 or 3 dB at 3K, 4k, or 5k with a Q of about 1.3, for example - that'll help it cut through a busy mix. You can put a bag of reverb on it when other tracks are drier. You can keep it drier when other tracks have more reverb. You can whisper the vocals on a second track and play it low in the mix. You can clone the vocal track and mess around with the clone's compression or effects or just delay it a few milliseconds. I dunno. I don't know much about this stuff. But the key is a really good mic.
 
Thanks a lot guys. There's a lot of Good info in here. I've picked up some good things as well.

I also use the UB series mixer, but I have an MXL mic. It's not the best, but I work with what I can afford. :(

Anywho... I appreciate all the input guys. Great info from you all as usual.
 
@Thirst: I'm kind of late to this thread, but don't you kind feel like a worthless piece of dog shit. This is a helpful forum, we don't come in here to bash each other. We only come to help, and to get help. Nobody ever said anything was wrong with hiphop or rap, they were only making a small observation to make you feel at home. Everyone in here, like Dakota (and me) wants to help you achieve a better sound, and would also like to achieve a better sound. Whenever someone criticises one of your posts for vagueness or clarification, it is not because they want to make you look or feel stupid, it's because they want you to know that we cannot help you unless you give us audio clips for comparison, or be more specific so that we can give you an exact answer. Keep this in mind whenever in a helpful forum. Show some respect to those that have given the time to reply to your posts in order to help you, not to harm you.
 
Okay, I didn't read anything after the flaming started, lol...but I have something that has helped me recently mixing a couple of kinda' complicated projects. If I'm repeating somebody, then I guess it's good advice. If I'm NOT repeating any advice, then give this a shot.

First of all, don't assume for a minute that the people turning out quality product didn't learn from "trial and error." I've read a whole lot of books and articles on the net and in forums like this, but it really comes down to trying shit out until something sounds better than it did before; but enough of me and my high horse, lol.

SPECIFICALLY, FOR MUFFLED VOCALS, using CEP, this may help. Take one of the vocal tracks and don't do anything to it. No reverb, no compression, no nothin...listen to it in the mix, all the way through, several times, and notice where it's not popping out...where it gets covered up...and where it's TOO loud. Manually go through and bring the volume up and down where you need to so each and every word is audible.

Save it, then make a copy of that vocal track, and save it as a totally different file. I call mine "vocal - dry" and "vocal - F#$%'d up," but I'm dumb. Anyway, with that copy, take it into edit mode and compress it using one of the massively severe vocal presets (like the one with the 12:1 ratio). Then, give it a pretty healthy EQ boost at between 5K & 8K. (note: massive compression and high end boosts are things you are not supposed to do to vocal tracks...but just stay with me here).

Now, you've got one vocal that is the "natural" vocal sound...which is pretty muffled according to your post. Set the fader on the copy (i.e., compressed/EQ'd) track to about -20db and start bringing it up until you start hearing the vocal get clearer and fatter. Don't overdo it...you want the natural vocal track to be louder, and use the compressed track to support it and to give it some top end sheen.

This works a lot better than just slapping EQ and compression onto the one vocal track, in my opinion. If you had a board, you'd do the same thing with AuxBusses, and you can in CEP too, but it hogs resources....

good luck,
Chris
 
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