Oriion, Rebirth & Fruityloops with Sonar

A

acgt

New member
I'm a singer trying to be a singer/songwriter.

Having major problem's getting the music and vocals construction process going the way I want.

I have been using Sonar for a while to record vocals, now I am starting to produce music (real harp, and computer produced everything else). I have been playing with orion & rebirth, from which you can save wave files and bring them in to Sonar and then lay down vocals. But would like to patch them to Sonar, so I can lay down some vocals then tweak the Beat/Rythyms to match. I know you can patch Rebirth to Cubase using Rewire, and I know you can use Midiyoke and Hubis to patch but they don't work in Win 2k (the platform of Choice for Sonar).

With some audio programs you can run them together unpatched and try to sync this way, but Sonar does not like giving up control of the Audio. I cannot run rebirth etc and Sonar at the same time. How to get around this? Get a Win 2k compatible patcher? Buy a second sound card? Use Cubase instead? Or give up on Standalones like Rebirth, Orion, and use VSTi and DXi instead?

Related to this Q is how do I get a vocal into a FruityLoops/FruityTracks song > or Do you need to save the wave > Sonar, or patch it through.

Hope Someone can help.
 
Well I figured that the reason I couldn't run Sonar and Rebirth, Orion & Fruity Loops together was because I MUST use the WDM drivers (ie use the checkbox under audio properties). I wasn't using them because of other issues.

Now I can synch the playback of each app as standalones, but I still dont know how to pipe the sounds from Rebirth, Orion & Fruity Loops into Sonar to record. Anyone know how to do this? Is this a MIDI issue, can I set it up using Cakewalk tools alone, or do I need 3rd party utilities?

I have also discovered for certain (as I suspected) that you CANNOT record vocals into Fruityloops.

BTW this is my fifth post in two months on this website and I only ever received, one response. I starting to feel unloved and unwanted :( Boo Hoo!
 
Well no relpies, but I figured it out for myself. Now I am happy. In Sonar I can combine Acid Loops, MIDI, DXi, VSTi, and now sync with Rebirth, Reason and Fruity Loops. What more could anyone want?
 
I decided to aim my explanation at the novice. Just like I was before I tried this, sorry if this is basic stuff to MIDI pros.

My setup:

Win2K SP2, AMD Duron 700MHz, 512MB RAM, Creative Vibra 128 SC (cheap but does OK in spec tests) WITHOUT WDM drivers. This affects the outcome for me. If I check the checkbox in Sonar under Options > Audio > Advanced tab > Playback and recording “Always Use MME Interface even when WDM driver are available” it works, but if I use WDM drivers then Sonar will refuse to play any audio if another audio application of any kind is open (I think I just have dodgy drivers though!)

Using Sonar XL 1.01 and floops 3.11.

Dual Monitors (via 32MB ASUS 7100T and 8Mb PCI cards). Highly recommend this for playing Sequencer on one and floops on the other. It is really cheap and easy to setup (I got an old crappy 14” monitor for free but it does the job alongside my 17”).


I used MIDIyoke to patch for MIDI sync which you can get from http://www.midiox.com/
You can use HubisLoopPack too but this only supports Win9x.

Install MIDIyoke following instructions on the above website. Then in floops go to options > MIDI. Under Remote control input choose “MIDI yoke NT: 1”. You can choose another channel if you like, just make sure the output channel of your sequencer (ie Sonar, Cubase, Logic etc) is the same. Also go to options and check “enable MIDI remote control”. Close the dialog box, but leave floops open. That’s all you need to do in floops. You do not need to set “playing output” or “master sync output” just leave on none. In fact if you set this to the same channel as the input and run, you will get MIDI feedback and may freeze your system.

Open your sequencer. In Sonar go to Options > MIDI devices. Under outputs select the same channels as you did for the input in floops. You can also select your standard MIDI driver if you also use one for playing back MIDI software instruments in your sequencer. You don’t need to select an input but selecting one for other MIDI input won’t affect things (unless it’s a midiyoke or hubis input and you set it to the same channel as your output > MIDI feedback). Then open Options > Project > go to MIDI Out tab. Under Send MIDI Sync heading Select the checkbox for “Transmit MIDI Start/Continue/Stop/Clock”, and make sure MIDI output port is set to the same number as your MIDIyoke choice above (usually “1”, the default). Click OK.

Now put a few beats in floops and make sure they playback in that application first. In Sonar MAKE SURE TEMPO IS SET TO SAME AS FLOOPS. Floops by default has tempo of 140 and Sonar has 100, play this back and you will get double beats, try it for fun or pain! Now in order to play floops from Sonar, there must be something in one of the tracks (doesn’t matter if it is an audio or MIDI track. This makes sense as there is no point synching to nothing! (ie if there is nothing in any tracks and you press play you will get a short beat from floops but nothing more). Of course the best way to put something in there is to record. So if you arm a track (In Sonar put a check on the “R” record button of a MIDI or audio track) and press record you should now hear floops playing. Arrange both floops and Sonar on the screen (or go dual monitors) and you will see the MIDI light flashing in floops.

Bear in mind that what you are doing is PLAYING floops through your sequencer. You are NOT RECORDING the floops sounds into your sequencer. This matters little though because they are synched. So if for instance you arm an audio track in your sequencer and have a mic or guitar plugged in then press record, floops will start, then you start singing or playing at the appropriate part of your song. Your Vocal or Guitar will be recorded in your sequencer but not floops. Why doesn’t this matter? Well because they are synched if you save your floops file as a wave, then import it into Sonar, it will then be synched to your vocals or giutar! The beauty of MIDI synch as I have very recently discovered is that you can play floops via your sequencer, and whilst it’s playing you change the beats in floops in real time, even while your singing, or playing back your vocals. I find playing back my vocals and being able to adjust the beats/rhythms in floops to match, invaluable in the song creation process. As Sonar supports MIDI instruments you can create MIDI notes on a MIDI track using the piano roll, then you can set the output of the MIDI track to MIDIyoke NT: 1 and it the notes will play through whatever instrument you have playing in floops. You can also put ACID loops into Sonar, but I found it did strange things to the tempo of the ACID loop when I was using them with floops piped through Sonar.
I also believe you could even control some functions of floops totally within Sonar if needed. Sonar has a thing called studioware, which are icons you can drop and drag and associate them with MIDI remote controls. This might be handy for some people. I have used the studioware panel called “Cakebirth” for controlling Rebirth from Cakewalk Sequencers (via MIDI yoke or Hubis). This worked, but only for some of the 909 drum panels. But it could be b/c it was designed for Cakewalk Audio 7 and above and not Cakewalk Sonar. Anyhow, I look forward to checking this out with floops.

However one annoyance is the each time I open Sonar it doesn’t seem to remember my checkbox for MIDI sync, so I have to check it again. Annoying too because I can’t see a shortcut icon for it. If anyone figures how to save this setting please let me know.

You can also sync Rebirth to your sequencer in a similar way. In Rebirth (2) go to Edit > Preferences > MIDI input section > choose “MIDIyoke NT: 1” or ch 2 if you also use floops. Then check “Sync to MIDI clock”. Close and Choose same MIDIyoke output channel in Sonar. Press record and viola!


Also I have had success synching both floops and rebirth simultaneuosly with Sonar. I daisy chained them. i.e Sonar is the Master and floops the slave, then an output from floops on a diff channel gives input to Rebirth. I could only acheive this with different sound card drivers. I've noticed BIG differences with different drivers for my card, so you might want to play with this. Only problem for me now is. With these drivers when i record i get an annoying banging sound through floops!

Also I have had no luck in getting Orion synched, which is a real pity, because it is KICK ASS! I will try Propellerhead Reason soon also.

Also played around in Cubase, but haven’t figured it out how to sync it with floops yet. I know though that Rebirth and Reason work really well with Cubase as you can use Propellerhead’s proprietry Rewire connections.


Let me know how you go. Hope it works!
 
No WDM?

Thanks a bunch, acgt! I'll give it a try...

BUT:
You say I cannot use WDM-drivers? Sounds strange to me, I can get SONAR, Fruity, Acid and even Winamp to play at the same time (in the meaning of they all play audio), and all of them using WDM-drivers (not shure about Winamp, though)...

But let's get sync'ed up!
 
Yeah, I think it's my cheap soundcard/crappy drivers though. For instance when I use WDM, I get a message saying my soundcard only supports mono input. But I can use stereo input with MME.

My latencies using MME aren't too bad though. But then again I've not yet tried it with several Dxi's running. Something which I want to do soon. Bottom line is, I'm going to get a better sound card. Might go the Audigy. I know it's not really prosumer, but it's probably one of the best in term of compatability (ie Windoxs , XP, Sonar, WDM drivers, ASIO drivers etc.
 
damn!
that was good!
I had been looking for a way to sync rebirth and fruity loops, and some people told me about hubis, but I didn't really understood because I'm new at MIDI, now I think i got it...
Hey, maybe you know something abouth this...
I've got a cheap CASIO keyboard, and I know it sounds cheezy, but I cannot afford sometihng better, so I tried sync it to rebirth and it was not ok, I did start when I started to play the sequence (or rythm in my cheapass keyboard), and rebirth started, but they were not sync!! I made sure the tempo was 140 for the both of them, but the tempo in rebirth starts flashing between 139-140, some guy told e it might be because of my also cheap ass HD, it's pretty old, do you think it's becuse of that?? I would like to buy a new HD just to know it wasn't the problem...

Thanks for sharing all that info!!
 
I presume you mean you are trying to get your MIDI keyboard as a way of playing notes into rebirth? I say that because Rebirth DOES NOT allow you to OUTPUT midisync (ie you can't play rebirth through your Casio to try and get the "Casio" sound.

If you are trying to do the former rather than type it myself I have just copied the info from the Rebirth 2 manual (see below or pg 128).

Also make sure you go to edit > preferences and check the best driver for your souncard is loaded. Hopefully yours is a direct x driver. If so YOU REALLY SHOULD adjust the slider for "Fast response------------------Less CPU". By defualt it is at less CPU. But if your CPU can handle it (and Rebirth is nowhere near as demanding as Sonar), you should slide this to the left until you start to hear the sound break up, then sit the slider just to the right of that point. If you keep going left the break up will dissapear but you will get underuns.

Also Rebith oscillating b/w 139/140 is normal but shouldn't grossly affect playback. It is more likely a driver/settings issue.

Let me know if this helps



Setting up Remote MIDI Control from External MIDI
Hardware

If you have some MIDI device connected to your computer that you want to use for
controlling ReBirth RB-338, proceed as follows:
1. Set things up so that the device you want to use for transmitting MIDI
messages is connected to the desired MIDI input.
Please note that if you want to synchronize ReBirth at the same time as using
Remote MIDI Control, you must set things up so that the synchronization
messages come in on the same MIDI input as the controller messages.
2. If you are running ReBirth on a Macintosh computer, create a device in
OMS setup that corresponds to your external MIDI device and save your
setup.
See the OMS documentation for details.
3. Launch ReBirth.
If you run ReBirth on a Macintosh it is important that you launch ReBirth after
making changes to OMS, or the changes you have made will not be available
in ReBirth.
4. In ReBirth, open the Preferences dialog.
The MIDI section of the Preferences dialog (Macintosh version shown here).
5. Activate Remote MIDI Control.
6. Select the MIDI Input port and MIDI channel that your controller is
transmitting on.
7. Choose Standard or Quick Mapping, and if required, click the Edit button
to set up the Quick mapping.
The details on these modes and the Quick Remote MIDI Mapping dialog are
described on page 130 and onwards.
 
No, you missunderstood me, I don't want to play the keyboard sounds trough rebirth, I want to play them both at the same time, syncronized!
You know an arpeggiator doesn't sound ok if it is not sync to the rythm section, it would be ok If I only did like a single note doing strings, because I would be triggering it myself and it would be sync, but in the case of an arpeggiator it has to be sync...
Do I make any sense??

Thanks for the information, I would take a look at it as soon as I get home!
 
Thanks acgt, you made my day!

I've been trying to sync fl with cw9 in vain, for a long time. I posted in several places and got no answers.
 
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