AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! please help before I uninstall cakewalk and burn the disc with a blow torch.........I am mixing in the consile view and I would fing a good volume level or pan position but the when I rewind to start from the beginning or for that matter every time I would jump to a different position the fader or panner moves back to the previous position ...Is there a way to make the console completely manual so it reacts like an anolog board and does only what I want it to do...
console automation
- Thread starter bukhuntre
- Start date
dachay2tnr
One Hit Wonder
Most likely you have automation enabled, or you have taken a "snapshot." If you took a snapshot, everytime you "rewind" the faders will go back to their snapshot setting.
I'm going to do you a very big favor. Pretend the console view in Cakewalk does not exist and use envelopes to control your volume settings. Envelopes (vector automation) are the way computers were designed to work. You need to get out of the mindset of an analog mixing board, and get into the fact that you are working on a computer. Computers can do things that are impossible in the analog world.
Go to your Track View and right click on the track you are trying to control. You should get a pop-up menu with one of the choices being "Envelopes." Select that, then Create, and then Volume.
Now you should have a colored horizontal line running through your track. The line represents your current volume setting for the track. If you left click and hold on the line you can drag it up or down to change the volume setting.
BUT (here comes the good part), if you double click on the line you will get what is called a Node. Do this so that you have two Nodes fairly close to each other. Now move a measure or two to the right and double click to create two additional Nodes.
Put your cursor on the line inbetween the two sets of Nodes and left click and hold. Now drag the line up or down. See what's happening? You are changing the volume in just that section. Use this technique to create a volume increase (or decrease) for just a sectiom of a song (or even a single note if you wish). It is the equivalent of raising and lowering a fader, but you can visually see where it is happening, AND you don't have to rely on doing it in real time.
If you get the hang of this, I guarantee you will never again open Console View in Cakewalk. (BTW, you can do the same thing with pans).
I'm going to do you a very big favor. Pretend the console view in Cakewalk does not exist and use envelopes to control your volume settings. Envelopes (vector automation) are the way computers were designed to work. You need to get out of the mindset of an analog mixing board, and get into the fact that you are working on a computer. Computers can do things that are impossible in the analog world.
Go to your Track View and right click on the track you are trying to control. You should get a pop-up menu with one of the choices being "Envelopes." Select that, then Create, and then Volume.
Now you should have a colored horizontal line running through your track. The line represents your current volume setting for the track. If you left click and hold on the line you can drag it up or down to change the volume setting.
BUT (here comes the good part), if you double click on the line you will get what is called a Node. Do this so that you have two Nodes fairly close to each other. Now move a measure or two to the right and double click to create two additional Nodes.
Put your cursor on the line inbetween the two sets of Nodes and left click and hold. Now drag the line up or down. See what's happening? You are changing the volume in just that section. Use this technique to create a volume increase (or decrease) for just a sectiom of a song (or even a single note if you wish). It is the equivalent of raising and lowering a fader, but you can visually see where it is happening, AND you don't have to rely on doing it in real time.
If you get the hang of this, I guarantee you will never again open Console View in Cakewalk. (BTW, you can do the same thing with pans).
Stratomaster
Active member
Great response dachay, thanks mucho!
Paul881
Look Mom, I can play!
Dachay, you really ought to write cakewalks manuals!
Bukhuntre, Dachay is absolutely right, try to get in the habit of operating from the track view only, almost everything is accessable from there.
It took me some time to "wean" myself of it, but I have been "clean" now for some time, and its much more efficient than alternating between the two views.
Bukhuntre, Dachay is absolutely right, try to get in the habit of operating from the track view only, almost everything is accessable from there.
It took me some time to "wean" myself of it, but I have been "clean" now for some time, and its much more efficient than alternating between the two views.
Stratomaster
Active member
Not quite there yet
Ok, so I was having the same problem as the original poster-I lost countless hours erasing automation data-only to see the same situation start all over again lol. So I finally see this easy to understand explanation by our friend dachay-and i set about to try it out.
First, so you know, I have a manual and cakewalk power(im using 9.3)-and both of these reccomend using the console view to mix? Ok so-im still a little confused-my specific questions;
1)are these envelopes available via the track view? It seemed like I could only get them in the audio view-so I'm still switching between views alot.
2) The volume envelope default line is based on what? A number typed in-in the track view? Should all faders in the console
be set at max-does it matter? Seems like you have to reference the console view to check the stereo output level-Am I that off in my method?
3)changing these envelopes in real time doesnt seem to work too well-and if you wanted to control several tracks with the same envelope-can you? How is this easier than grouping a few channels together in the console view?
I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm arguing against your advice-I'm not.I am new to this and I apparently have developed bad habits and I want to establish the best work method I can so I'll admit my ignorance. If anyone could help out and explain there mixing method in more detail and/or address my specific questions, I would be forever in your debt.lol. Btw I use cakewalk for audio only-no midi.
One other thing I've noticed that bugs me is-in my track view there is ALWAYS a track for console automation-I cant get rid of it!
Why does this automation seem to be the default!!! Why can't I just do a plain old mix?? I try my best to take no snapshots and to leave automation alone-why is it thrust on me?? Why am I constantly battling this??AAAAAAAHHHHHHHH Help!
Strat(cakewalkus incompetentus)
Ok, so I was having the same problem as the original poster-I lost countless hours erasing automation data-only to see the same situation start all over again lol. So I finally see this easy to understand explanation by our friend dachay-and i set about to try it out.
First, so you know, I have a manual and cakewalk power(im using 9.3)-and both of these reccomend using the console view to mix? Ok so-im still a little confused-my specific questions;
1)are these envelopes available via the track view? It seemed like I could only get them in the audio view-so I'm still switching between views alot.
2) The volume envelope default line is based on what? A number typed in-in the track view? Should all faders in the console
be set at max-does it matter? Seems like you have to reference the console view to check the stereo output level-Am I that off in my method?
3)changing these envelopes in real time doesnt seem to work too well-and if you wanted to control several tracks with the same envelope-can you? How is this easier than grouping a few channels together in the console view?
I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm arguing against your advice-I'm not.I am new to this and I apparently have developed bad habits and I want to establish the best work method I can so I'll admit my ignorance. If anyone could help out and explain there mixing method in more detail and/or address my specific questions, I would be forever in your debt.lol. Btw I use cakewalk for audio only-no midi.
One other thing I've noticed that bugs me is-in my track view there is ALWAYS a track for console automation-I cant get rid of it!
Why does this automation seem to be the default!!! Why can't I just do a plain old mix?? I try my best to take no snapshots and to leave automation alone-why is it thrust on me?? Why am I constantly battling this??AAAAAAAHHHHHHHH Help!
Strat(cakewalkus incompetentus)
dachay2tnr
One Hit Wonder
stratmeister - Most of my advice was directed towards Sonar. It's been awhile since I've used PA9, so some of what I'm about to tell you is based on my memory. And since I'm only working on about 1/2 the usual allowance of brain cells to begin with (the other half having been donated to various causes in my younger days) I won't guarantee the veracity.
1. I can't remember whether you can use envelopes in Track View in PA9. You may be right that you need to apply them in Audio View. (FYI, Sonar has eliminated Audio View and with Sonar you do most everything in Track View.)
2. I believe the volume default for the envelope in PA9 is based on the number that is typed into the Vol box in track view (or the fader setting in Console View - the two are interelated). If I recall, the max setting is 127, and I think 101 relates to about a 0db setting.
My preferred method of work is to start with the lead vocal at 101 (0db). Then adjust the volume settings (number) for the other tracks to get the mix roughly where I want it. This is all before attempting to apply envelopes. Envelopes are generally used to control the volume in specific sections of the song. You should get your mix pretty close to what you want first.
Not sure what you mean re. the stereo output. Are you talking about the volume levels of the Main Outs? Again, I think you are correct. In PA9 you would need to check this in Console View. Sonar has placed volume meters for the Mains in Track View.
3. I don't think I would bother trying to control envelopes in real time. However, with the latency of most computer systems, I don't think I'd trust trying to do a volume change in real time with faders either. Use an envelope to set it where you think is right, and then simply replay the section. If it's not right, adjust accordingly. Envelopes are easy to changed and adjust.
Grouping tracks is a little tougher. Here again, Sonar has ways to do this that don't exist in PA9. In Sonar you can assign specific tracks to their own Virtual Main, and then simply place a volume envelope on that Main which would control all the tracks assigned to it.
In PA9 you would probably need to either mix the tracks down to a single track, or group the faders and use the Console. However here again, given the latency of most systems, this would seem to be a montrous chore to get right.
Lastly, you can get rid of the automation track by simply highlighting it and Delete Track. I don't believe this track is a "default." Rather it appears as soon as you establish any automation in your project.
You bring up some valid points regarding some difficulties in using envelopes in PA9. However, even with those limitations, I personally would still chose that route over Console Automation.
1. I can't remember whether you can use envelopes in Track View in PA9. You may be right that you need to apply them in Audio View. (FYI, Sonar has eliminated Audio View and with Sonar you do most everything in Track View.)
2. I believe the volume default for the envelope in PA9 is based on the number that is typed into the Vol box in track view (or the fader setting in Console View - the two are interelated). If I recall, the max setting is 127, and I think 101 relates to about a 0db setting.
My preferred method of work is to start with the lead vocal at 101 (0db). Then adjust the volume settings (number) for the other tracks to get the mix roughly where I want it. This is all before attempting to apply envelopes. Envelopes are generally used to control the volume in specific sections of the song. You should get your mix pretty close to what you want first.
Not sure what you mean re. the stereo output. Are you talking about the volume levels of the Main Outs? Again, I think you are correct. In PA9 you would need to check this in Console View. Sonar has placed volume meters for the Mains in Track View.
3. I don't think I would bother trying to control envelopes in real time. However, with the latency of most computer systems, I don't think I'd trust trying to do a volume change in real time with faders either. Use an envelope to set it where you think is right, and then simply replay the section. If it's not right, adjust accordingly. Envelopes are easy to changed and adjust.
Grouping tracks is a little tougher. Here again, Sonar has ways to do this that don't exist in PA9. In Sonar you can assign specific tracks to their own Virtual Main, and then simply place a volume envelope on that Main which would control all the tracks assigned to it.
In PA9 you would probably need to either mix the tracks down to a single track, or group the faders and use the Console. However here again, given the latency of most systems, this would seem to be a montrous chore to get right.
Lastly, you can get rid of the automation track by simply highlighting it and Delete Track. I don't believe this track is a "default." Rather it appears as soon as you establish any automation in your project.
You bring up some valid points regarding some difficulties in using envelopes in PA9. However, even with those limitations, I personally would still chose that route over Console Automation.
Freudian Slip
New member
YA YA
All of this advice is very valid and very good advice, but it doesn't change the fact that cakewalk has had this problem for years and has failed to address it while releasing new versions with the same problem.!!
Don't get me wrong I love cakewalk but if I bought a car that I had to hit the brakes three times and flick the headlights on and off once just to get the turnsignal to shut off (that I never turned on in the first place) I would be one pissed off S.O.B.!!
And If I took it in for warranty work and they told me thats what I had to do I would strangle the guy. After all I never even turned my turn signal on...
Sorry, Sore subject... But that is exactly how cakewalk has chosen to deal with a problem they have had for years. And what really burns is that I always check the FAQ section of the web sight before buying any software or hardware to see if I might have any conflicts. Do you think this is anywhere to be seen in the FAQ section. Not a chance!!! Like this has never been an issue???? Do a search and you will find posts dating way back there.
$500.00 later It really pisses me off!!
Sorry guys
Cakewalk is about the best you can get for your money. It's like a great deal on a Jaguar with a broken turnsignal that can never be fixed.
Just give me an option to uninstall / disable console automation!!
Later
F.S.
All of this advice is very valid and very good advice, but it doesn't change the fact that cakewalk has had this problem for years and has failed to address it while releasing new versions with the same problem.!!
Don't get me wrong I love cakewalk but if I bought a car that I had to hit the brakes three times and flick the headlights on and off once just to get the turnsignal to shut off (that I never turned on in the first place) I would be one pissed off S.O.B.!!
And If I took it in for warranty work and they told me thats what I had to do I would strangle the guy. After all I never even turned my turn signal on...
Sorry, Sore subject... But that is exactly how cakewalk has chosen to deal with a problem they have had for years. And what really burns is that I always check the FAQ section of the web sight before buying any software or hardware to see if I might have any conflicts. Do you think this is anywhere to be seen in the FAQ section. Not a chance!!! Like this has never been an issue???? Do a search and you will find posts dating way back there.
$500.00 later It really pisses me off!!
Sorry guys
Cakewalk is about the best you can get for your money. It's like a great deal on a Jaguar with a broken turnsignal that can never be fixed.
Just give me an option to uninstall / disable console automation!!
Later
F.S.
Dachay:
Does the track that is created for Automation contain the information necessary for the automation to take place.
I guess my real question is: If I delete this track, when I go to save the project to wav, will it not take into consideration my saved automations if that track is missing?
Thanks.
BM
Does the track that is created for Automation contain the information necessary for the automation to take place.
I guess my real question is: If I delete this track, when I go to save the project to wav, will it not take into consideration my saved automations if that track is missing?
Thanks.
BM
Dechay, Great advice. The envelopes do work very well but I prefer the console and the automation tool. I usually do my trackicg in the main view. I do my editiing in the audio view and do my mixing in the Console view. I rarely go back and forth from between each of these views. I only switch views once i'm completely done with the operation. It's great to know you can do everything in one view in sonar. I might take a look at it. The reason I like automation it's done in realtime. I tend to think of evelopes when I want a fade to be very accurate. If I want to just take something out completely with out a fade I think of automation. Or If I want to take out a group of instruments automation works well too. Automation and Envelopes are great in cakewalk. Once you learn how to use each effectiively you should'nt have any problems. Once you get the faders where you want them you must take a snap shot once your done making you level adjustments. This way cakewalk will remeber you level settings. I use an external mixer so I leave my faders at 0db in cakewalk and adjust the level of the mix with my external mixer. Before I had the mixer though I did all my level adjustments in cakewalk. You can also do level adjustments in the mainview like Dechay said.
redheadedboy
New member
i do most of my mixing on an external board, but now you've got me thinking... Is there an easy way to save different envelope versions? Like snapshots... so if i wanted to test different mixes i wouldn't have to re-do all the envelopes?
or is this best accomplished by just saving different versions of the *.cwp file?
thanks,
tim
or is this best accomplished by just saving different versions of the *.cwp file?
thanks,
tim
I've found using the console view automation helpful for real time mxing but then I have to go into the track view and edit point by point the nodes, for a slow fade in there may be four or five nodes that can be reduced to one or two.
Problems are latency and dropping out on big projects. Thought it was my machine (256 RAM 900mhz) but maybe it's just the program!
Problems are latency and dropping out on big projects. Thought it was my machine (256 RAM 900mhz) but maybe it's just the program!
dachay2tnr
One Hit Wonder
Let me try these in order:
FS - You're probably right in that the Console Automation in CW/Sonar is very poorly designed. However, I got over my frustration once I found envelopes. After that I never found a need to use Console Automation again. It seemed counter-intuitive to me anyway to be moving fake pictures of a fader using a mouse. IMHO, faders were designed for your hands, while vector automation seems more suited for a mouse and computer.
BM - AFAIK the automation track is where your console automation data is saved. But it's been a year-and-a-half since I've used PA9, and even longer than that since I've looked at an automation track. However, if you have automation that is doing what you want it to do, I would not delete that track. My advice to delete it was for those who find automation occuring NOT when they want it to. If you want to experiment, save the project under a new name and have at it.
chalin - if you have a method that works for you, then please continue to use it. That's why they make vanilla AND chocolate. I would still argue, however, that you really can't mix accurately in real time using the Console faders due to the latency inherent in most systems (this is less an issue with newer, more powerful systems though) and that envelopes give you more control and better accuracy, since you can place the nodes exactly where you want your changes to occur.
Tim - You can save the project under different names, or you can just clone the track (in Sonar use Track/Clone and select all the settings). Then you can Archive the cloned track and play around with the original. Sort of the same approach as resaving the file, but only on a track by track basis. You can also use this approach if you want to play around with effects, without losing the original settings you had. You just need to remember which track is which.
Mike
FS - You're probably right in that the Console Automation in CW/Sonar is very poorly designed. However, I got over my frustration once I found envelopes. After that I never found a need to use Console Automation again. It seemed counter-intuitive to me anyway to be moving fake pictures of a fader using a mouse. IMHO, faders were designed for your hands, while vector automation seems more suited for a mouse and computer.
BM - AFAIK the automation track is where your console automation data is saved. But it's been a year-and-a-half since I've used PA9, and even longer than that since I've looked at an automation track. However, if you have automation that is doing what you want it to do, I would not delete that track. My advice to delete it was for those who find automation occuring NOT when they want it to. If you want to experiment, save the project under a new name and have at it.
chalin - if you have a method that works for you, then please continue to use it. That's why they make vanilla AND chocolate. I would still argue, however, that you really can't mix accurately in real time using the Console faders due to the latency inherent in most systems (this is less an issue with newer, more powerful systems though) and that envelopes give you more control and better accuracy, since you can place the nodes exactly where you want your changes to occur.
Tim - You can save the project under different names, or you can just clone the track (in Sonar use Track/Clone and select all the settings). Then you can Archive the cloned track and play around with the original. Sort of the same approach as resaving the file, but only on a track by track basis. You can also use this approach if you want to play around with effects, without losing the original settings you had. You just need to remember which track is which.
Mike
crosstudio
New member
i stopped using the automation in favor of the envelopes for the same reason.
back in my pre-cakewalk v8 i use to use snapshots to control my changes.
then in cakewalk v8, i started using console automation wherein i would go into the event view and make any necessary adjustments.
now, in sonar, i've totally abandoned the automation altogether. i can't understand why the automation can't be re-programmed to create nodes in the envelopes.
back in my pre-cakewalk v8 i use to use snapshots to control my changes.
then in cakewalk v8, i started using console automation wherein i would go into the event view and make any necessary adjustments.
now, in sonar, i've totally abandoned the automation altogether. i can't understand why the automation can't be re-programmed to create nodes in the envelopes.
Freudian Slip
New member
dachay2tnr: Don't get me wrong
I am a huge fan of envelopes. It is an awsome way to control volume and pan. Much Much better in fact than I could Imagine a proper console automation would ever be.
My main beef is that all I want the console for is to do a rough mix to get base level setting to work from. I like the format for adding EQ, effects, and compression. I never tried or even wanted to try to use it for automation. My problem is that the program just doesn't get that.
I have CW 9.0 suite, and you can start a new project, never turn on automation, and at some point into the process the phantom fader f***er will choose to start screwing with my mix.
As I said I could care less about console automation. Take it Please!!!
I also was told to set all volumes to -1 on the pane view. They change back....
My new question I guess would be. If I never ever open up the console view will my problems be over? Is the fact that I open it to do a quick base setting and to check my input signal what is causing me problems?
What do you think??
Another question. Is sonar totaly free of this problem?
(if so they should give it to me for free!!!)
Sorry again guys. It's not that they have a problem, It's that they fail to deal with it in a reasonable manner. Very poor customer relations.
Later
F.S.
I am a huge fan of envelopes. It is an awsome way to control volume and pan. Much Much better in fact than I could Imagine a proper console automation would ever be.
My main beef is that all I want the console for is to do a rough mix to get base level setting to work from. I like the format for adding EQ, effects, and compression. I never tried or even wanted to try to use it for automation. My problem is that the program just doesn't get that.
I have CW 9.0 suite, and you can start a new project, never turn on automation, and at some point into the process the phantom fader f***er will choose to start screwing with my mix.
As I said I could care less about console automation. Take it Please!!!
I also was told to set all volumes to -1 on the pane view. They change back....
My new question I guess would be. If I never ever open up the console view will my problems be over? Is the fact that I open it to do a quick base setting and to check my input signal what is causing me problems?
What do you think??
Another question. Is sonar totaly free of this problem?
(if so they should give it to me for free!!!)
Sorry again guys. It's not that they have a problem, It's that they fail to deal with it in a reasonable manner. Very poor customer relations.
Later
F.S.
dachay2tnr
One Hit Wonder
FS - In Sonar I never open Console View. They could completely remove it from the program and I wouldn't even know it.
I don't think it is possible, however, to do this in PA9. At a minimum you need to go to console view in PA9 to be able to access to your main faders.
I do suggest that you consider upgrading to Sonar. The interface alone is just soooo much better. It has volume sliders (no more entering numbers) and meters right in Track View that you can use to set your "rough mix." The Mains are also present in Track View - with volume sliders and meters as well.
Slip editing is also another very powerful feature in Sonar. With slip editing you can essentially cut and delete portions of a track without losing the actual audio material (kind of a "virtual" cut and delte which is reversible).
I'm not a Sonar salesman (although if they want to send me commission checks, I'll cash them), and I liked PA9 a lot when I used it, however, it is dated. Someone (DavidK?) descibed working on PA9 after Sonar as similar to watching a black & white TV after seeing color. It's actually a pretty good analogy. You can see all the pictures and hear all the words, but it just seems so... dated.
*apologies to those who don't know what a B&W TV is.*
I don't think it is possible, however, to do this in PA9. At a minimum you need to go to console view in PA9 to be able to access to your main faders.
I do suggest that you consider upgrading to Sonar. The interface alone is just soooo much better. It has volume sliders (no more entering numbers) and meters right in Track View that you can use to set your "rough mix." The Mains are also present in Track View - with volume sliders and meters as well.
Slip editing is also another very powerful feature in Sonar. With slip editing you can essentially cut and delete portions of a track without losing the actual audio material (kind of a "virtual" cut and delte which is reversible).
I'm not a Sonar salesman (although if they want to send me commission checks, I'll cash them), and I liked PA9 a lot when I used it, however, it is dated. Someone (DavidK?) descibed working on PA9 after Sonar as similar to watching a black & white TV after seeing color. It's actually a pretty good analogy. You can see all the pictures and hear all the words, but it just seems so... dated.
*apologies to those who don't know what a B&W TV is.*
acidrock
GO PACKERS!
When I first got PA9 I always thought the console view was flawed(still is) much to bulky,cumbersome and that damn snapback!
With the envelopes you can get a Quick visual glimpse of whats going on if the mix is complicated and your ears are tired/playing tricks on you.
Sonar is definitely a better working arrangement.
And thats only one of the advantages.
With the envelopes you can get a Quick visual glimpse of whats going on if the mix is complicated and your ears are tired/playing tricks on you.
Sonar is definitely a better working arrangement.
And thats only one of the advantages.
Dechay- Your right it's not an accurate way to do fades and pans. I don't think I said it was. I never said I didn't use the evelopes either. I thought I was saying that using automation isn't as aggrevating to everyone as it is to some. I have no problems with automation and I hope dem boyz at Cakewalk never get rid of it.
