AD/DA Converter

[Jorock]

if you're just interested in upgrading the converters and don't need a new I/O option...take a look at the mods from Black Lion:

http://www.blacklionaudio.com/digi002_mod.html

Yeah I did look at what Black Lion has to offer and I am interested. Im just wondering if I spend that money, if down the road I'll be finding an interest in upgrading from that to the rosetta. Im just wanting to skip steps rather than constantly upgrading I'd rather buy what I might be happier with for the long-term (if thats even possible with a gearhead like me ;-)

I used to run M-Powered when I had my m-audio 410, but I bought the digi002 for 8-ins so I could track drums.

I dont think I really need more than 8 ins, I know some drum kits out there are larger, but regardless, for a home based studio I want quality and quantitiy to be balanced within a reasonable budget.

Currently I run a Mackie VLZ3 Pro mixer (for 4 extra pres) into the digi002, but I have considered a BLA mod, and 2 dual channel preamps for 8 high quality ins. Or the other option is to buy a mackie type mixer that has 8 pres, and run those 8 into a rosetta, then the rosetta into some type of digi interface? Might cost more money but would it sound better or just as good or worse?

 

[Nandoram]

What is it? And how would it help my rig? I have Pro Tools LE with the Digi 003 rack with 8 pre's! Thanks for your help!
Also, what would be a good one with at 2000 price limit?
I searched AD/DA Converters and didnt find much information.
Hope this isnt too much of a dumb question! : )

I was recently schooled on just this thing, and so I'll pass on what little I know to you!

I have a 003 Rack I bought when it first came out... about a little over a year ago. Previously, I had had the 001. The 001 was great, but I did notice that the converters on the 003 were BETTER. My vocal recordings sounded clearer to my ears. Also, the guitars and bass seemed to benefit from increased clarity. Not as much color as on the 001. I'm no expert... but I really do believe the 003 converters are better than what was on the 001, or the 002 for that matter. According to my brother, who owns a 002 rack, the 002 converters are "darker" in his opinion.

Anyway, my bro turned me onto the need for getting a better converter than what comes in the 003. He suggested that I get an Alesis M20 ADAT machine, and use it's vastly superior converters. I use this to record at 24bits initially in Pro Tools, and it's sounding GREAT. The Alesis M20s go for pretty good prices nowadays... even on Ebay. Only about $200-$400. And that's a great price for a $7000 converter!!!!!!!!

 

[Nandoram]

Another thing... using better converters is better all around for your mic preamps. I'm currently using a Summit Audio 2BA-221 preamp for my vocals, bass, and (of course) guitars... and now with the better converters, I'm hearing what it REALLY sounds like without the 003's converters coloring the sound. I can only imagine how great an AVALON or a UA preamp would sound like (I can't afford them at this point). For now, I'm very happy with the Summit unit, because I primarily do hard rock, and the Summit is geared for that.

The only weak link I have now is using my various guitar modelers (Vamp Pro Rack, and Vox Tonelab LE). The problem is suffering with their inferior converters coloring the sound. I also have the $125 Line6 PocketPOD, and you can imagine how cheap that converter is for the price. The only way around that is to use a software modeler, which would eliminate the need for the physical converter.

For bass, I've been VERY happy with how my SansAmp Bass Driver DI has been tracking through this rig. I've learned how to dial in a setting that sounds great to my ears, and keeps the unit from becoming TOO NOISY (which a lot of SansAmp stuff is, and I'm surprised not many people talk about that (from what I've seen online)). I mean, I recently returned a GT2 because it was WAY TOO NOISY for me (even with a noise reduction pedal).

 

[Jorock]

Anyway, my bro turned me onto the need for getting a better converter than what comes in the 003. He suggested that I get an Alesis M20 ADAT machine, and use it's vastly superior converters. I use this to record at 24bits initially in Pro Tools, and it's sounding GREAT. The Alesis M20s go for pretty good prices nowadays... even on Ebay. Only about $200-$400. And that's a great price for a $7000 converter!!!!!!!!

Hey Nandoram, so by using the ADAT are you able to run an XLR right into the back of it then out through the ADAT jack to the 003, or am I wrong, cause I think there aren't any preamps in the ADAT. If not then what is your signal path, cause if you run an XLR into the 003 and then use an external converter,is it not just running back through the digi converters, thus losing the quality?

I have considered a Rosetta 800 as an external converter, but if it renders the digi002's preamps useless, then the digi becomes a giant firewire dongle as others have suggested.

 

[Nandoram]

Hey Nandoram, so by using the ADAT are you able to run an XLR right into the back of it then out through the ADAT jack to the 003, or am I wrong, cause I think there aren't any preamps in the ADAT. If not then what is your signal path, cause if you run an XLR into the 003 and then use an external converter,is it not just running back through the digi converters, thus losing the quality?

I have considered a Rosetta 800 as an external converter, but if it renders the digi002's preamps useless, then the digi becomes a giant firewire dongle as others have suggested.

Yeah, you got it right, Jorock... you need another preamp... not the Digi one.

It is a big firewire dongle, but you need this dongle to use that EVERY STUDIO HAS IT PT software!

My bro set it up for me, and I'm not 100% on how he did it, but here's what I know:

I'm using the 003, a Summit Audio preamp, and the ADAT. I had to buy a DYNEX 3 FT DIGITAL OPTICAL CABLE ($19.99 at Best Buy). I connected this to the back of the 003, and of course, to the back of the ADAT. I think my bro called this "lightpipe", but I could be wrong. Then he connected the Summit Preamp to the ADAT via an XLR cable.

When I record my guitars, the signal path is: modeler to the preamp, the preamp to the ADAT, with the signal going to the 003 via the Optical cable. We had to set up the ADAT to the following: CLOCK SOURCE: OPTICAL; SAMPLE: 44.1K; SMPTE: 24; TC SOURCE: EXTERNAL; Then I had to go into the preferences of the 003 and make PT recognize the ADAT input.

When I record vocals, I just plug my condenser into the preamp (which has phantom power). The vocal signal tehn of course goes via XLR to the ADAT, which then goes into the 003 via the Optical cable.

Works great!!!

 

[Jorock]

Ah gotcha! So the question for me is, do I spend my money on a Black Lion Audio mod, or do I pursue the Rosetta 800 and a collection of preamps over time, and run those into the digi? ... as I think that's more my thing than the ADAT.

What will get me better quality regardless of price, as I think its obvious the Rosetta path will be the more expensive one, but possibly hold greater long term value and superior quality? Anyone?

 

[Nandoram]

Ah gotcha! So the question for me is, do I spend my money on a Black Lion Audio mod, or do I pursue the Rosetta 800 and a collection of preamps over time, and run those into the digi? ... as I think that's more my thing than the ADAT.

What will get me better quality regardless of price, as I think its obvious the Rosetta path will be the more expensive one, but possibly hold greater long term value and superior quality? Anyone?

I was on the Apogee website.. and on the Rosetta 800 page, it seems to imply that (among other systems), it may only work with Pro Tools HD. Is it even possible to use it with a 003 (is that what you have?) if you get it? If not, then that's a no-go.

I saw the prices for the Black Lion mod, and that's $800 (or $1250 if you go top of the line). If I had the cash, I would look into the Black Lion mod, because I've read a lot of good stuff about them. I saw the cost of the Rosetta 800: $2500 through Sweetwater, for example.

If you go my route, you can score an M20 for about $200-400, and get a great converter. Check the net, and see what folks are saying about the M20's converters. Hell, the M20 is so cheap, you can get that AND the Apogee converters and A/B them yourself. Or just rent an M20 from a studio for some experimentation.

I am going to start looking at other preamps shortly... getting a collection of those is most definitely an investment. If you go the M20 route, then you can use that money you were going to spend on the Apogee converter and buy an Avalon preamp, or maybe one of the Apogee preamps... or a Fatty, or a UA... something high end like that. You will need a good preamp to really make use of those better converters.

The M20 converters are crystal clear so that you can tell how exactly what effect a good preamp makes to your recordings. The difference for me was well worth it, when I heard what my Summit Audio preamp sounded like through the M20, compared to the preamp through the 003 converters.

My brother, who is a techno musician... is completely sold on the M20 converter. Likewise the studio guy that sold me his M20. He had two of them, and held onto the other one for future work.

 

[pezking]

Ah gotcha! So the question for me is, do I spend my money on a Black Lion Audio mod, or do I pursue the Rosetta 800 and a collection of preamps over time, and run those into the digi? ... as I think that's more my thing than the ADAT.

What will get me better quality regardless of price, as I think its obvious the Rosetta path will be the more expensive one, but possibly hold greater long term value and superior quality? Anyone?

Do you have a great sounding room?

Do you have great instruments?

Do you have great mics?

Are you as good as you can be?

IMO if you answer no to any of those, then that is where your next purchase should lie. There's absolutely no reason, whatsoever that you cannot produce a great sounding recording on a 003, or 002.

At the end of it, there's so much BS going around the net about buying better converters and that it will make your recordings sound so much better. No, it won't, not unless every other part of your signal chain (including your brain and ears) are up to scratch.

No offense but you'll be wasting a stupid amount of money buying the Rosetta.

 

[Jorock]

I was on the Apogee website.. and on the Rosetta 800 page, it seems to imply that (among other systems), it may only work with Pro Tools HD. Is it even possible to use it with a 003 (is that what you have?) if you get it? If not, then that's a no-go.

I saw the prices for the Black Lion mod, and that's $800 (or $1250 if you go top of the line). If I had the cash, I would look into the Black Lion mod, because I've read a lot of good stuff about them. I saw the cost of the Rosetta 800: $2500 through Sweetwater, for example.

If you go my route, you can score an M20 for about $200-400, and get a great converter. Check the net, and see what folks are saying about the M20's converters. Hell, the M20 is so cheap, you can get that AND the Apogee converters and A/B them yourself. Or just rent an M20 from a studio for some experimentation.

I am going to start looking at other preamps shortly... getting a collection of those is most definitely an investment. If you go the M20 route, then you can use that money you were going to spend on the Apogee converter and buy an Avalon preamp, or maybe one of the Apogee preamps... or a Fatty, or a UA... something high end like that. You will need a good preamp to really make use of those better converters.

The M20 converters are crystal clear so that you can tell how exactly what effect a good preamp makes to your recordings. The difference for me was well worth it, when I heard what my Summit Audio preamp sounded like through the M20, compared to the preamp through the 003 converters.

My brother, who is a techno musician... is completely sold on the M20 converter. Likewise the studio guy that sold me his M20. He had two of them, and held onto the other one for future work.

Yeah that sounds pretty good, however I do know that the Rosetta can be used with the Digi002. Apogee even has a pdf document that outlines how to hook a rosetta specifically to a 002, the only issue is that the digi002 maxes out at 96khz, whereas the Rosetta goes up to 192khz.

Yeah I plan to purchase used as I've seen the Rosetta go for pretty cheap, but then again I may just decide to go with Black Lion for the upgrade. Then I might pursue getting a couple high-end dual channel preamps to run into the 4 ins on the digi002 for 8 high quality ins total (again another thought)

 

[Jorock]

Do you have a great sounding room?

Do you have great instruments?

Do you have great mics?

Are you as good as you can be?

IMO if you answer no to any of those, then that is where your next purchase should lie. There's absolutely no reason, whatsoever that you cannot produce a great sounding recording on a 003, or 002.

At the end of it, there's so much BS going around the net about buying better converters and that it will make your recordings sound so much better. No, it won't, not unless every other part of your signal chain (including your brain and ears) are up to scratch.

No offense but you'll be wasting a stupid amount of money buying the Rosetta.

Yeah I have invested lots of money in my own gear, not to mention the relatively quality gear others have when they come in to my house and pay me to record them, I have access to great mics, but I dont own lots myself.

I work hard to get better at mixing, and regardless of maxing out the potential of my gear (which is entirely subjective), sometimes new gear inspires new ideas through better sounds. Thats one thing I have learned from being a guitarist for 13 years.

And while I do agree all areas of a signal chain are important, good converters do make a difference in most contexts. Upgrading will make a difference in any context. A good mic is limited to how effectively it's signal is processed through preamps, and subsequently converted into a digital signal. Both are valuable financially worthwhile pursuits. Especially when I can offer better gear as a selling feature of my services as a recording engineer to others in my area, regardless of experience.