Vintage sound requires special equipment?

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MidoBan

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Hi, i don't know a lot about recording equipment, and i wanna buy an external sound card and microphone and start recording my music (acoustic guitar + vocals).

Now, most of my music influences are from the past (for example, james taylor). So i thought to myself, they didn't have all of these digital hardware back then, and maybe if i'm aiming for those vintage sounds i should look for some non conventional modern equipment.
Well, i dont really know where to start, are my assumptions even make any sense? or am i better of with a mbox and a good condenser? is there anything like an "analog external soundcard"? should i look for some special microphone as well?

Thank you
 
For doing basic acoustic guitar and vocals (James Taylor style)...it's not goinbg to be anything much different today than it was back then. A good guitar, vocal, a couple of mics into a decent preamp, in a nice room...you're good to go.
 
So i thought to myself, they didn't have all of these digital hardware back then
True -- They basically only had really, really, REALLY high quality gear back then. Now, there is a lot of garbage out there. Digital aside ---
maybe if i'm aiming for those vintage sounds i should look for some non conventional modern equipment.
I'm wondering if you're (is "confusing" the right word?) "quality source, captured well" with "vintage-sounding" to some extent -- They used really great gear - Nothing unconventional. And I'd bet that if you listened closely, you'd probably hear the tape hiss, wow & flutter, noises in the room (etc.) on some of those recordings. If "quality" means "unconventional" these days, then yes - You should go unconventional. But there's nothing unusual about Neve, API, etc.
Well, i dont really know where to start, are my assumptions even make any sense? or am i better of with a mbox and a good condenser? is there anything like an "analog external soundcard"? should i look for some special microphone as well?
Always start with the source. If you're trying to make a "James Taylor-ish" recording (for example), you'd damn well better have an absolutely stellar-sounding acoustic and a rather "pointed" but simultaneously broad and smooth voice that doesn't interfere with the lower mid frequencies of the stellar acoustic.

After that, a reasonable quality chain in a reasonable quality space is going to be the key.
 
True -- They basically only had really, really, REALLY high quality gear back then. Now, there is a lot of garbage out there. Digital aside ---

I'm wondering if you're (is "confusing" the right word?) "quality source, captured well" with "vintage-sounding" to some extent -- They used really great gear - Nothing unconventional. And I'd bet that if you listened closely, you'd probably hear the tape hiss, wow & flutter, noises in the room (etc.) on some of those recordings. If "quality" means "unconventional" these days, then yes - You should go unconventional. But there's nothing unusual about Neve, API, etc.

Always start with the source. If you're trying to make a "James Taylor-ish" recording (for example), you'd damn well better have an absolutely stellar-sounding acoustic and a rather "pointed" but simultaneously broad and smooth voice that doesn't interfere with the lower mid frequencies of the stellar acoustic.

After that, a reasonable quality chain in a reasonable quality space is going to be the key.

Ok, so lets make this question more specific. Put aside the acoustic guitar, the vocals and the room, lets talk recording equipment only.
Before i started wandering about this "vintage sound" thing, i was going to buy a mbox 2 sound card and a MXL 9000 condenser mic for vocals (haven't figured out the guitar mic yet).
The question is, should i continue on with that plan, or should i get other equipment for this sound of older folk music?
again, should i get any analog, or maybe even real vintage equipment instead? if so, do you have any recommendations? because i dont have a clue.
Maybe i'm wrong here, but to my ears, its sounds like their sound had some more "roughness" and "dirty texture" then todays music, as if today its too clean and smooth, and i'm afraid that the modern/digital equipment would sound like that.
 
A few thoughts, consistent with what others have said:

If you want to go out and buy most of the "vintage equipment" that was used to record James Taylor's records in his heyday, you can do so. You'd better have tens of thousands of dollars to spend, though. Throw in the room as an item of "equipment," and make that hundreds of thousands. Just to elaborate further on a single detail: sure, James Taylor's records were recorded on a tape deck. To be more specific, they were probably recorded on Studer or Ampex machines running 2" or 1" tape at 30 ips, and the machines were carefully calibrated at regular intervals by qualified engineers. Whether recording to a 4-track cassette deck (or even a 1/2" 8-track) is "the same thing" is a question. They were also (I think) recorded with mics running through preamps and channel strips that, if anything, are more prized and more expensive now than they were then (and they certainly weren't inexpensive then).

On the "too clean and smooth" topic, there's a lot that could be said. The first thing I, anyway, would say is something like: "What? Vintage James Taylor doesn't sound clean and smooth to you?!" Maybe it's just me, but James Taylor records have never exactly sounded rough and edgy. There are any number of commercial releases today that sound rougher and dirtier than anything (at least anything non-live) released by James Taylor.

More on that: rough and dirty is actually kind of easy to get, no matter what recording technology you're using. Indeed, you're more likely to wind up with a recording that's rougher and dirtier than you want than the reverse (and, even if you don't, it's not that hard to dirty-up a recording on a computer).

There are various things you can do to make a recording more clean and smooth than it otherwise would be (and, indeed, more clean and smooth than what you'd hear if you were just sitting in the room listening to the musician play). Doing those things requires a variable combination of equipment, expertise and time/attention. In the '70s, the combinations that worked really well generally required one or all of equipment and expertise that only professional studios had, and a fair amount of work. Just a few examples: what are now "vintage" compressors, tape machines with the capability to do seamless punch-ins, the chamber reverb in the Capitol Records basement, the ability and time to edit single tracks on a tape with a razor blade, etc. Nowadays, tools with the approximate equivalent effect are availabe to pretty much anyone. The expertise is still an issue, but at least you can do edits without the possibility of requiring stitches.

The result, perhaps, is that - at least in some circles - people are going further toward "clean and smooth" than they used to. Like whoever makes Katy Perry's records, or whatever (I might be wrong there, as I'm less familiar with Katy Perry records than I perhaps should be). Too far? That's a matter of taste I suppose. In any event, there's an easy way to fix the problem: don't do so much.

A whole other topic, hearkening back to the first: James Taylor, to be technically correct though perhaps pedantic, doesn't play folk music. He plays folk-style music. The distinction might sound subtle, but it would make some people jump up and down about 40 years ago. Real "older folk music" sounds different (and was written and performed by "folk," not by guys with handsome recording contracts playing in arenas). More to the subject of the thread, there are recordings of real folk-folk-folk music in existence that sound quite different, from a technical standpoint, than your typical modern recording (and also quite different from any James Taylor record I've ever heard, so maybe I'm completely off topic here). If you want the sound of WPA recordings, you'll have to get a portable disk recorder. If you want to simulate that sound, there are ways to do it on a computer.

Anyway, my opinion on the "how do I make a '70s James Taylor record today" would be:
- Basic, everyday recording equipment will get you in the ballpark. In particular, you don't need a lot of channels, which is good.
- I'd put more attention and resources into the guitar than the recording equipment.
- I'd put even more attention and resources into singing and songwriting.
 
The result, perhaps, is that - at least in some circles - people are going further toward "clean and smooth" than they used to. Like whoever makes Katy Perry's records, or whatever (I might be wrong there, as I'm less familiar with Katy Perry records than I perhaps should be). Too far? That's a matter of taste I suppose. In any event, there's an easy way to fix the problem: don't do so much.
Thats exactly what i meant when i said "too smooth and clean", and thats what i don't want. from what you wrote, i understand that its nothing to worry about.

Anyway, my opinion on the "how do I make a '70s James Taylor record today" would be:
- Basic, everyday recording equipment will get you in the ballpark. In particular, you don't need a lot of channels, which is good.
- I'd put more attention and resources into the guitar than the recording equipment.
- I'd put even more attention and resources into singing and songwriting.
Of course!! Don't get me wrong, i only ask for information about the technical side here because that's where i need help in. The most important thing is my music and the way i play and perform it. But the thing thats missing for me right now is the knowledge of how to record it correctly.

Thanks for the comment
 
One more thing, what about a microphone type for that kind music? do you suggest a condenser/dynamic? Large diaphragm or no?
 
The fairly standard recommendation would probably be a large-diaphragm condensor for the voice and a small diaphragm condensor for the guitar. You could make do with one or the other. I'd tend to lean, in ascending order of how much you want to spend:
- LD condensor in the low price range.
- LD + SD condensor, both in low price range.
- LD + 2SD condensor, still in the low price range
- Consider more expensive SD condensors
- Etc.
 
Capturing sound requires equipment, but just just what constitutes special? I recall Tom Dowd saying he got a lot of his mics from the local church as they were about to throw them out in favor of 'new' and 'better' mics. :eek:
If you can record 'decent' gear with at least 'decent' equipment, and you EQ and compress it just like Tom would have done, it's bound to come out sounding great. Just how 'vintage' it sounds is up to debate. But some people, like Joe Meek, recorded with crap gear. He's been dead almost fifty years and we still talk about him. If I get talked about fifty seconds after I'm dead I'll be surprised.
But I still say it's all up to how you record (room sounds, mic placement, etc.) and how you process it (EQ, compression, etc.) that will make it sound 'vintage'. Or not.
 
Ok, so lets make this question more specific. Put aside the acoustic guitar, the vocals and the room, lets talk recording equipment only.
Everything above is far and away the most important. But fine - Let's go there...
Before i started wandering about this "vintage sound" thing, i was going to buy a mbox 2 sound card and a MXL 9000 condenser mic for vocals (haven't figured out the guitar mic yet).
The question is, should i continue on with that plan, or should i get other equipment for this sound of older folk music?
Okay -- Yes - to get a fine quality recording, you'll need gear capable of capturing that fine quality. I would avoid your current plan. You're looking at some of the cheapest (not necessarily "horrible sounding" but certainly not what you're looking for), run-of-the-mill stuff out there. Cheesy ChiCons and all-in-one $100 interfaces aren't going to get you that "James Taylor-ish" sound even if JT was in the room.
should i get any analog, or maybe even real vintage equipment instead? if so, do you have any recommendations? because i dont have a clue.
Everything short of the converters is analog -- If you mean tape, IMO, not really necessary. I love tape - I use tape - But I don't "need" tape. What you DO want is "warm" I'm sure, so you're looking for mics that aren't strident and cruddy (like so many ChiCons) -- SM7b, RE20's, FatHeads -- Shouldn't be without. SM81's, CK391B's, STO 2's and KM184's are nice for acoustic guitar (along with the FatHeads, of course). If you really feel the need for a condenser on the vocal (that seems to be pretty popular lately for some odd reason), Rode's NT1a is very nice (sounds a lot like a SM7b or a Sony 800). API/Neve/Great River preamps (many others, those are just off the top), some quality conversion -- You might want to let us know your budget... But as mentioned, forget tape. You want uber-expensive? Go for it if you're qualified enough to maintain the deck after you've spend X-number of $k's finding one in nice enough shape. Digital sounds great (assuming a decent chain is there to capture it).
Maybe i'm wrong here, but to my ears, its sounds like their sound had some more "roughness" and "dirty texture" then todays music, as if today its too clean and smooth, and i'm afraid that the modern/digital equipment would sound like that.
Way more. Noise, grunts, groans, hiss, mistakes, print-through -- Some people these days are so obsessed with "perfection" that they take the soul right out of the recording. You had x-number of tracks and x-amount of time in the studio to get it right.

Now, unlimited tracks gives you unlimited rope to hang yourself with.

Back to the issue -- Give us a budget to work with here. It'll make it a whole lot easier.
 
Back to the issue -- Give us a budget to work with here. It'll make it a whole lot easier.
Well, as i mentioned before, i was going for the MXL 9000 mic and the Mbox2 interface, so my budget was around 500$ for both audio interface and vocal mic. If you say it won't do the trick, i'm willing to wait and save some more money in order to get better equipment.
Its better to wait and get more decent stuff then settle for something thats not up for it.

I already have a MXL 9000 mic new in its box, are you positive that it wont provide the "warmth" i need? because i can sell it no problem.
I'm not "locked" on a condenser, i'm open for suggestions.
EDIT: i'm reading some good stuff about the AKG C535, any opinions?

About the audio interface, sorry for not knowing anything about it, but theres a first time for everything. What is the difference between the audio interfaces you suggest and the Mbox like ones, which are actually external sound cards with a preamp and jacks for all the equipment? is the interface operation the same? connect to the computer and use Cubase/ProTools/etc.. to edit your recordings?
or is it just a part of the recording chain and i'll need more equipment up the chain until it gets to the computer?

About the acoustic guitar mic, i'll be happy to get some advice, but due to all of these recent news about the budget, i'll put it on hold for now, and get it later on. For now i'll just use the vocal mic for both, and by the time i get comfortable with all this equipment i'll have some more budget to get the instrument mic.

Thanks
 
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I have a sinking feeling that this is going to turn into one of those "I can't get my recording made with basically no experience and a $1,000 budget to sound like a recording made by a team of industry professionals with decades of experience in a multi-million dollar facility built around the absolute pinnacle of quality gear. Why?" threads...

And of course - I'm not saying that good-quality recordings can't be made for uber-cheap... But we're talking REALLY uber-cheap at this point and we haven't even mentioned the most important parts of the recording chain yet. And I'm not referring to the source - I'm referring to the monitoring chain and the control room itself.

At this point, I don't have the time to invest. Maybe later in the week...
 
I have a sinking feeling that this is going to turn into one of those "I can't get my recording made with basically no experience and a $1,000 budget to sound like a recording made by a team of industry professionals with decades of experience in a multi-million dollar facility built around the absolute pinnacle of quality gear. Why?" threads...

And of course - I'm not saying that good-quality recordings can't be made for uber-cheap... But we're talking REALLY uber-cheap at this point and we haven't even mentioned the most important parts of the recording chain yet. And I'm not referring to the source - I'm referring to the monitoring chain and the control room itself.

At this point, I don't have the time to invest. Maybe later in the week...

Actually i understand.. i probably didn't explain myself correctly in the main post. I know its not possible to get the sound i talked about with cheap all-in-one audio interfaces. But i wanted to know how can i get closer to it within the possibilities i have in this price range. After all, even in my price range there are a lot of possibilities, so some must be better suited for this then others.
Also, the microphones you suggested are actually affordable, and doesn't require a big budget to acquire. Thanks anyway..
 
Well funnily enough the best way to get closer to the sound you want is by focusing on the very things you want to discount. which are the source and the room

I have found through painful personal experience and an honest self confrontation that I have achieved far better results by simply being better prepared for and working much harder on tracking than by dropping any amount of cash on low/mid consumer recording gear

my suggestion is this
- Prepare for every recording session as if it were costing you 100 bucks an hour, and then practice some more
- Work with the space you have. Be creative with duvets, moving blankets and any room treatment you can manage to get the best room you can. YOU CAN"T FIX A POOR ROOM WITH BETTER GEAR OR IN THE MIX
- once you have the room working for you then start working on the mic positioning. More expensive, *better* mics still need to be positioned well to get the right sound. don't accept anything but the best position you can find to get the sound you want. YOU CAN"T FIX POOR SOUND CAPTURE WITH BETTER GEAR OR IN THE MIX
- Never accept a poor performance, ultimately YOU CAN"T FIX IT WITH BETTER GEAR OR IN THE MIX
- record multiple take of everything, even good takes may not be great all the way through however if you have multiple versions (At least 3), you can edit them together into one composite final version (Comping). Even professional musicians rely on this for studio recordings
- Don't second guess your gear, even lower end stuff will capture a pretty accurate picture of what you put in front of it. If you are poorly prepared, in a bad room with poor mic position it will accurately capture the sound of that. If you are well prepared, have tweaked your room as much as possible and have really put some effort into getting the mic position right it will capture that

Don't be in a hurry to spend a couple of hundred bucks to get a tiny fraction of a percentage point of an upgrade in gear, spend time getting everything else right and build experience and save. When you are really ready, spend a couple of grand or more on a real upgrade that will make a real difference for a long time to come and your performance and recording skills will really be able to take advantage of it.

YOU CAN"T FIX A BAD PERFORMANCE, A BAD ROOM OR POOR MIC POSITION WITH BETTER GEAR OR IN THE MIX

If you fix the performance, the room and mic position as best you can with the limitations of your space and gear you won't need to spend anywhere near as much time fiddling with gear/worrying about quality of gear or on the mix!

Guys in the 60's 70's etc were working with what was then top of the line gear to get those sounds. There are some artifacts that were introduced but they would have been horrified to think they were recording anything other than the best quality most pristine versions of the performances possible.
Shoot for the same level of excellence in tracking. You can add any amount of harmonic distortion, high end rolloff and compression/saturation you want after the fact

One persons experience
YMMV
 
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No, you don't need vintage gear to make clean recordings...and frankly, I think it would be moronic to spend thousands on vintage gear when you don't even know what mic to use on your instruments. My philosophy is that home recordists should outgrow the gear they have before moving up.

Get cheap gear...get the best recordings you can with it...at some point, your recordings will be limited by your gear more than by you...although it'll be awhile. When that happens, start investing in better gear.

In addition to making sure you don't throw a pile of money into a hobby that you may or may not love, this method makes you a better engineer. Once you start getting good recordings with cheap gear, getting GREAT recordings with better gear will be much easier.
 
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