Signal Chain Help - UA710/RNC/PRO24DSP

BigEZ

The Devil Has Blue Eyes
Hi All,

So I've got my pre-amp (UA 710), my tracking compressor (FMR RNC), and my audio interface (Focusrite PRO24DSP). How do you recommend I set them up? Pre to comp to interface? Pre to interface with comp on a sidechain? Also, what kind of cables would you recommend to connect each?

This is my first time using a bit more advanced equipment so I thought I would seek some advice from more advanced members before setting up.

Thanks,

ROK
 
I'd record straight from the pre to the interface without the RNC and add compression later if needed.
 
Thanks. About cabling...the interface has mic pre's on it as well and the UA pre only has XLR out. Should I connect with an XLR to XLR cable or should I use XLR to 1/4" to bypass the pre on the interface?

About the compressor, I've read a couple books (Guerilla Home Recording and The Mixing Engineers Handbook) and they suggest using a touch of compression on the original signal. This is why I purchased the RNC because in Super Nice mode it will do it's job but be very transparent. Having said that...hypothetically speaking, should I run the RNC as a sidechain on the interface or go UA to RNC to interface?

Thanks again for your help.
 
You'd want to bypass the pres on the interface with a XLR > TRS cable and use the line input on the interface.

If you run it as a sidechain what would you be using as the key input? Sidechaining compressors is used mainly for voiceovers to duck the program material for the voiceover. There are other uses, such as using a kick drum as the key input to sidechain a bass line or synth or other. I guess you could experiment and see what gives you the result you are after.

The thing about compressing your input is once you've recorded the compressed the signal you're stuck with that result.

You might want to look up parallel compression too and consider that form of use for the RNC.
 
Being new at this I may not know exactly what side chaining is...I just mean running the compressor out from the interface and back in to effect the signal before it gets transferred by FireWire to the computer. Does that sound about right or should I go Pre to Compressor to Interface? I ask because I really don't know if the 1/4" outs and ins on the interface work the same as an Aux Send on a mixing board (which is what I was working with previously). There certainly is no knob to set the level of Aux return on this interface.

Thanks again for your input.
 
One more question...I read up on parallel compression and it looks like a pretty cool idea, but how would I do this with just one mic and one compressor? I'm using Sonar X1 by the way. Also, I will only be recording vocals, acoustic guitar and distorted guitar as I will be using a midi keyboard and VSTs to produce drums and bass.
 
Fancy mic pre -> RNC -> Interface line in (not mic in).

Since the mic pre, though quite fancy, at least by my standards, does not have an insert, that would be the way to go.

You could leave the RNC out, though applying a little compression while still in the analog realm might be a good idea. At least for acoustic guitar and vocals. Not so much for distorted guitar, but it's not against the rules or anything.

I don't know exactly how the interface is set up (there should be a block diagram or at least some explanation in the manual), but I'm assuming however you'd be "side-chaining" (really inserting, I think) the compressor with it would put the compressor after the AD conversion. There doesn't seem to be much point to that. Once it's digital, you might as well record it - you can always compress later with software, or with the RNC if you so desire. If my assumption is wrong - that is: if the interface has an analog insert point after its input and before its AD conversion - you'd likely be better off using that. But that doesn't seem highly likely to me.

Detail: by running your mic pre through the RNC, you'll lose the benefit of the balanced line (assuming your interface has balanced inputs ... if not, you never had the benefit of the balanced line anyway). Some might get wound up about that, but I wouldn't worry much, at least so long as the three boxes are connected with short cables, as they would be the case in they typical home setup.
 
Thanks sj. I got the pre for a great price...it was an in store demo model they were getting rid of on EBay.

Yes, I'm only intending to use very little compression on the way in (somewhere from 2:1 to 4:1) in Supernice mode which is apparently very transparent.


This raises another question. While mixing in the box, what if I want to send the stereo bus back out to the RNC for more light compression just to smooth out the edges after parallel compression inside the box? How would you suggest I hook up the RNC in that case? Link to rear panel of interface... http://c0000390.cdn3.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/saffire_pro_24_dsp248.jpg


Finally, you mentioned cabling...Please humor me, I have a few questions about that...

-XLR to TRS from the pre to the compressor...then I run TRS to TRS from the compressor to the interface?

-The pre only has one out but the RNC has two ins...is there a cable I can use to take advantage of that?

-The RNC has two outs and the interface has two ins...should I be using two TRS to TRS cables for that? I'm assuming this would give me a stereo signal as opposed to mono?


You've given me a lot of help since I've been a member here...it is greatly appreciated!

ROK
 
How would you suggest I hook up the RNC in that case?
Pretty simple, though I guess it depends on where you're trying to record the master. If you're going to record it back to the computer:
interface line outs (two of them) -> RNC ins -> interface line ins
Some DAW software has settings that are specifically intended to facilitate such an arrangement, which would do things like automatically figure out the appropriate latency compensation. If not, you can work it out. If what you're winding up with is a final stereo master, you don't really need to worry about compensating for any latency anyway, as your master will stand by itself, and doesn't need to be in sync with the old tracks.

-XLR to TRS from the pre to the compressor...
Hmm. This got me suddenly to remember something: the RNC inputs (unbalanced) are set up so they can be directly connected with a single cable to an insert, that is: the RNC takes its input signal from the tip contact of its jacks and it also connects its output to the ring contact (as well as the tip of its output jacks). If you use a typical XLR-TRS cable, you'd be connecting the cold output from the mic pre (pin 3) to the output from the RNC (ring). That's a bad idea. What you want is an XLR-TS cable. Pin 3 on the XLR should (I think) be connected to the shield.

The right way to do this is to buy a cable that's wired that way, or make one. To make one easily, you could take an XLR connector and an ordinary TS cable, cut off the one end of the TS cable, and solder the XLR connector to the wires, with line to pin 2, and shield to both pins 1 and 3.

then I run TRS to TRS from the compressor to the interface?
That would work: the ring connection from the interface (cold input) would just be left floating. I think there's might be some theoretical advantage to grounding it at the far end (i.e. at the RNC end), but not worth the trouble.

The pre only has one out but the RNC has two ins...is there a cable I can use to take advantage of that?
You wouldn't really get any advantage. You'd just get two copies of exactly the same signal.

The RNC has two outs and the interface has two ins...should I be using two TRS to TRS cables for that? I'm assuming this would give me a stereo signal as opposed to mono?
As implied by the prior answer, there'd be no advantage. If you used a Y cable to connect your mic pre to the RNC, then connected both RNC outputs, you'd just get two identical signals, which I suppose you could call "stereo," but not of a very useful sort. If you connected the mic pre to one input on the RNC, the other output would have no signal at all.

Slight expansion on the subject of the RNC's two in/outs: These are really only useful if you're starting out with a "real stereo" signal that you want to compress. By "real stereo," I mean two signals that are (i) not identical but (ii) related, as in the left and right sides of a stereo mix, or the signals from two separate mics that are picking up the same source. There's no point to running identical signals through it: there's only one set of controls, so they'll be processed exactly the same, and you'll just get two identical outputs. You generally don't want to run unrelated signals through it at the same time, because it's not "dual mono," or in other words there's only one detector, or in still other words, both signals will be compressed in response to their combined level.

EDITED to circle back to the first part and answer in more detail:

Interface outs to RNC ins (assuming interface outs are TRS ... if they're TS the cable doesn't matter): use a TS cable, not a TRS.
 
First, thanks for taking the time to explain in depth...

Could I not just use TS cables all the way? I.e. XLR to TS (pre to comp), TS to TS (comp to interface)? I don't really understand the whole TS or TRS thing.

Finally, is there a way I could cable things so that I could take advantage of the RNC on the way in as well as stereo bus out without having to change the set-up?
 
Could I not just use TS cables all the way? I.e. XLR to TS (pre to comp), TS to TS (comp to interface)?
Yep. That also works.

Quick observations about TS and TRS plugs and jacks:
- Obviously, in your typical cable, each part of the plug is wired to the same part at the other end: tip-tip, ring-ring (if there is a ring contact), sleeve-sleeve. The sleeve is typically connected to the shield and is the ground.
- A TRS jack has three contacts, which connect to the corresponding parts of a TRS plug (if it's pushed in all the way, anyway). A TS jack only has two.
- If you put a TS plug into a TRS jack, the contact that's "supposed" to go to the ring touches the sleeve, which effectively grounds it.
- If you put a TRS plug into a TS jack, nothing touches the ring on the plug. It's just left unconnected and "floating."

Finally, is there a way I could cable things so that I could take advantage of the RNC on the way in as well as stereo bus out without having to change the set-up?
If by "change the set up" you mean repatching the cables going to the RNC's input: not really. Or at least not any way that's obvious to me.
 
Hey sj,

If you're around I could really use your help. What if I run single XLR to dual TS into the RNC, then run dual TS to single TRS from the RNC to my audio interface? Will this keep the signal in stereo for vocal and guitar tracking? Unfortunately as previously stated, the RNC only accepts unbalanced lines.

Thanks,
 
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