Setting up a Hybrid Analog/Pro Tools studio

[Rickson Gracie]

I plan on using a TASCAM TSR-8 only to record drums because i feel drums just sound so much sweeter when recorded to tape. I am using an Oram T8 mixer to run the mics for the drums. I then want to import the tracks into pro tools using an Apogee Rosetta 800 into a Macbook Pro. I want to record guitars, vocals, bass directly into the Apogee/Macbook using a UL LA610 as a pre. I then want to mix down the finished product onto a TASCAM 22-2. I ultimately want to press the songs onto vinyl.

Two questions.

1. What is the best way to sync the drums into Pro tools 9? How can I get the drums to align within the grid of protools 9? I dont plan on doing too much editing as I want to keep the work flow similar to recording only to tape but i would still like to keep everything organized within the PT grid just in case.

2. Can I do much better than the TASCAM 22-2 as a stereo mixdown deck? I am looking for a nice sweet warm analog sound Would the larger TASCAM 32 be sonically superior?

PS... the main reasons I want to use PT and a Macbook Pro is so I can keep most of my recording mobile (except the drums). I like to record in different room of the house for better acoustics...etc I also like to instantly recall projects and even do some mobile editing etc without being tied to the basement studio. I am trying to have my cake and eat it too lol

Thanks

 

[Beck]

Use one track of the TSR-8 for sync pulse and sync PT to the TSR-8 with SMPTE/MTC. Or you can use 7 tracks of the TSR-8 for drums (and maybe bass) and one track for a scratch guide track. Import the tracks from the TSR-8 and build the song from there. The 22-2 is a great half-track. The 32 has some extra features and takes 10-inch reels, but other than that the sound is just different, not necessarily better or worse. The 32 is technically (on paper) cleaner with more headroom than the 22-2 , but in practice you'll find you can get about anything you want out of either deck... from crystal clear to grungy.

 

[Rickson Gracie]

Thanks Beck. I have never used a sync pulse to SMPTE before. Where does the pulse originate from? Is like a metronome? I need to do some research on this.

 

[miroslav]

Or you can use 7 tracks of the TSR-8 for drums (and maybe bass) and one track for a scratch guide track. Import the tracks from the TSR-8 and build the song from there.

This is how I would do it, since it doesn't appear you need to sync the deck to PT at all....because you are only going to use the deck for the drum tracks.
Once you have the drum tracks and guide track in PT...use them to record the rest of your tracks against. No sync between deck and PT needed.

I would also consider using a click on one track, and scratch guitar/vox on a second...which leaves 6 tracks for the drums. Do a stereo OH pair and you still have 4 more tracks for your spot mics.
With the click...it will be a solid rhythm...and then when you pull the drum tracks, scratch track and click track into PT...that click is also a great visual cue and you can use its BPM to set up any girds you may want in PT.

You would only need to sync the deck and PT if you planned to do more than one dump from the deck to PT...or if you were going to try and play drums to prerecorded tracks in PT...but I think that's just complicating things more.

 

[briank]

No need to sync machines for what you're doing. I would just record the drums to tape, use a track for a click if you want/need it and roll it all into ProTools, then track the rest to that. If the drummer preferred tracking along with other instruments, I don't know your mixer but if you have any space to spare on it you could set up a scratch guitar/bass channel to a headphone cue.

On the side, though, if it was me I'd be keen to get the bass to tape as well as the drums. 8 tracks is plenty for 'em, I do full bands to 8tks

 

[poopchute]

I have a somewhat stupid question. Lets say your doing what the OP has described. When you dump from Tape to ProTools, should I just take the signal thats coming out of the back of the TSR-8 or the mixer? And What type of interface would be the Best "Bang for the Buck" for a 8 or 16 channel input device that has good converters or A to D converters? Something thats just a way to get 8 or 16 channels into Protools at the best quality sound...

 

[miroslav]

Go from the deck into the DAW...not through the mixer.

AFA converters...if you say "best quality"...then you are talking a lot of $$$ for 8 or 16 channels. What kind of budget?

 

[leddy]

I am looking for a nice sweet warm analog sound

Hopefully you already know this, but just remember that tape (as much as we love it here) is not a magic bullet. It is usually more subtle than you might think. You still need to make sure the rest of the chain (& room) is moving you towards the sound you want. Tape is not going to make Chinese mics, cheap preamps, bad rooms and excessive plug-in usage sound like a Blue Note label record from the 60's.

 

[poopchute]

I dont want to derail the OP on his thread. But I have no idea what types of products are out there for 8 or 16 channels into a computer from a Tape Machine. I have other questions too so I might start my own thread soon...

 

[miroslav]

Makers of 8 or 16 channel A/D converter boxes...

RME - $$$
Apogee - $$$
Echo - $$
Lavry - $$$$$
Lynx - $$$$
Delta Audio - $$
Lucid - $$$

There's probably more brands.

I wanted 24 channels of A/D/A...not that I really needed 24 simultaneous channels of A/D, but I wanted at least 24 channels of D/A since I mixdown in analog through my console.
At the time I was looking at the RME stuff...then I saw a lot of folks saying the Echo Layla24 boxes were as good, but less expensive. I bought one, tried it out, then bought two more. I probably would have bought a fourth one, but I ran out of PIC slots in my tower!

Been using the Layal24 boxes for quite a few years now, and I can't complain about the A/D/A quality. I usually convert at 24/88.2
They are no longer in production, but Echo has other multichannel models now.

If I money was no object...the Lavry stuff is absolutley top-shelf. Down from that, the Lynx Aurora boxes are great, and they also make a 16 channel version...though it ain't cheap.

 

[briank]

Poopchute, ( ) I would start a new thread about it.

...but...erm, sorry OP... I'll say RME is $$$$ and Apogee and Lavry are $$$$$ especially when you're talking 16chs worth....I'm using a pair of RME ADI-8DSs with ProTools HD through a 16ch digital 192i/o, and before that to LE through an ADAT Bridge. Cost no object, I would rather have had Apogee Rosetta 800s or 16Xs, but the RMEs are about 90% as good for 40% less money, so bang for the buck came into play there. They're certainly better than an Echo Layla 20bit I've used years back but I don't know how the newer versions compare.

Bang for the buck is tricky with digital converters. Buy good used gear and otherwise you'll narrow your choices down by figuring out what you do and don't need them to do. If you're on PT9 and not tied down to interfacing with Digidesign/Avid hardware and are mixing in the DAW and not back out through an analog mixer, you could take a look at an all in one type budget interface like the Presonus FP10 et. al, then you'd have 8 mic pres into ProTools for tracking or 8 lines in for rolling your tape tracks in.

 

[leddy]

I'd like to see a thread on converters from the perspective of the analog guys here.

 

[miroslav]

...and Apogee and Lavry are $$$$$...

......

Cost no object, I would rather have had Apogee Rosetta 800s or 16Xs.

Not to turn it into a gear/brand war ...but a short anecdote....

Back about 10 years...I'm looking at digital boxes and whatnot, and there was a guy on another forum I knew who had his own commercial studio and was already way up into the real expensive stuff (his monitors alone were up in the $10k range)...and I asked him about converters.
He mentioned Lavry and then said if you don't want to spend that much but still want pretty high end, Mytek were up there...etc...and he agreed that RME was real good and even that my own final choice of the Layla24 was pretty darn nice considering their price.

I then asked him what about Apogee...and aren't they in the same upper-end end league as the Lavry and Mytek stuff?
He said...Lavry is like Rolls Royce...Mytek like Cadillac...and Apogee like Chevy!

Now I don't think Apogee is that far apart from Mytek...but I always think of that comment of his when I consider upgrading my converters.

 

[zorf]

Not that I have any expertise, but apogee seems to be pretty highly regarded, from what I read.
I also noticed that they recently upgraded their designs including the duet with better converters.
I have read that converters in general are getting much better lately.
Some are paying more attention to the analog section of their designs and using better components there.
Burl for instance.

EDIT: just wanted to add, the converters are probably not the biggest quality bottleneck for people here at "homerecording".

 

[leddy]

EDIT: just wanted to add, the converters are probably not the biggest quality bottleneck for people here at "homerecording".

Amen. I lean towards Ethan Winer's view that a $25 Soundblaster is not much different than a "pro" converter. I don't want to start that debate here in this thread. I'm just saying that's where I am at.

 

[miroslav]

Of course...if you need multiple channels, a SoundBlaster isn't going to give it to you...
...but I agree overall, which is why I opted for the less expensive Layla24 boxes over the much higher priced options, and I think they do more than a decent job of converting.

That said...if money wasn't an issue...why NOT buy up?!

 

[briank]

Apogee a Chevy? Oh dear, now I've heard everything! I think that honor would go to MOTU instead...Apogee, Lavry et al, at that level it's all good and you pick your favorite flavor. I like tight musical Apogee snap for rock, it's got a sound I like. If was recording symphonies and wanted utterly neutral transparency I'd look to something else...but...on an analog forum you gotta figure we're not really utterly neutral transparency type of people

I agree with Ethan on some of his positions such as acoustics and have bought his room treatment products which are excellent, but I disagree with his stance on converters. There's way more to those puppies than a chip. You can't discount the clocks, the analog circuits, power supply, general parts quality and manufacturing tolerances etc.

All that said, i agree with zorf about converters not being the quality bottleneck in a chain, especially when it comes to just rolling tape tracks into a DAW.

Rickson Gracie, what HAVE we done to your thread!?! Sorry, I hope it's been educational anyway