Polarity question... why?

Titanship

New member
Good Afternoon Gentlemen,
Ok. I'm supposed to know this, but I'm just a friggin songwriter who wound up with a studio, and I have only so much brain matter.

What is the "reason" for a polarity switch on my mic pre-amp? Is that simple enough? Yes, I can tell the differnce when I switch it, but what are the differences for?
Thanks Much,
Titan
 
You use the polarity switch on the preamp when you are recording a source in stereo, and one mic is out of phase with the other. Switching the polarity can help it get back in phase. If you're not recording in stereo, there's no reason to use it.
 
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I could be off the wall on this but, As far as I know you always want to have normal polarity except in some special use or effect maybe. My point is I guess, you would want to fix the problem of a mic with reversed polarity weather recording stereo or not. It would be more of a problem in the lower spectrum, but should be watched on all of your mics & wiring.

Am I wrong guy's?


F.S.

PS This switch could be used to compensate for a reverse wired cable.
 
Last edited:
I could be off the wall on this but, As far as I know you always want to have normal polarity except in some special use or effect maybe.
Right, you'll want to use normal polarity except in some "special use", and that special use is when you're recording a source with multiple mics, and one of the signals is greatly out of phase with the other (e.g. bottom snare mics are usually out of phase with top snare mics, so as a rule, you'll want to flip the phase on one of them.)

My point is I guess, you would want to fix the problem of a mic with reversed polarity weather recording stereo or not.
The mic isn't out of phase in and of itself, it is out of phase as compared to the other mic in the stereo pair. A mic can't be out of phase if there's nothing for it to be out of phase with.

This post shows that you know next to nothing on what phase actually is. Maybe you should make sure you know what you're talking about before you contribute on a topic, especially if you're contradicting someone else.
 
cominginsecond said:


This post shows that you know next to nothing on what phase actually is. Maybe you should make sure you know what you're talking about before you contribute on a topic, especially if you're contradicting someone else.


Well I did not mean to offend anyone or contradict you. The fact that I asked to be corrected if wrong should make it obvious that I do not claim to be the all knowing master of phase. I did not say a mic is in or out of phase buy it's self. Yes I think your right a mic can only be out of phase with another mic, but the polarity can be reversed/backward all by it's self (well with crappy wiring, a problem better cured by corricting your wiring).

Any way I never meant to imply you were wrong I only was trying to say keep your polarity normal unless you need to change it for a reason, and that this switch could be used to compensate for a wiring problem. I guess I am used to the digital world where you can correct phase problems without ever touching that switch.

I am sure I displayed my ignorance about what most people use this switch for:D. But never did I mention phase or say you where wrong.

Later

F.S.
 
Last edited:
I apologize. I didn't mean to get snippy. Sometimes the anonymity of the internet gets the best of me, and I take having a bad day out on an innocent stranger.

take care,
jeremy
 
Thanks and no problem. I agree that written text alone can really foster misunderstandings. That being said I could have done a better job saying what I meant. :)


Later

F.S.
 
O.K., first things first. So far this post has been pretty good about proper usage of the terms phase and polarity, but I will clarify for those who may not be clear on the subject. Phase is an issue of time, and exists anywhere you have waves (whether sound or otherwise, but for our purposes we mean sound waves and the electrical representations of them). Phase shifts can happen for acoustic or electronic reasons. Polarity is just that, the polarity of the electronic representation, which changes the direction the speaker moves during the first period (half) of the sound wave. Polarity is an electronic issue. Just to be clear, there is no polarity involved acoustically, ever. There is also no time element to polarity.

The traditional way of teaching polarity and phase is with sine waves, which can lead some confusion. See the upper demonstration in the attachment. The problem with using sine waves for this is the constant nature of a sine wave. Sine waves do not exist in nature, and have elements which differ drastically from natural wave forms. Natural sound waves change over time, enough so that no two consecutive cycles of a wave are the same. I have always felt that it would make more sense to teach the concepts of phase and polarity with a more complex wave form, so there would be less confusion. See the lower half of the attachment. And the triangle wave I used is still an unnaturally simple wave form, so imagine what happens when you start dealing with a more complex, natural, wave form.

There is a frequent tendency, even among professional engineers, to call all phase incoherencies phase "problems." While it is true that phase issues can frequently be problems when handled poorly, it can also create sounds which are much better than single microphone techniques. Multiple microphones always create phase issues. The polarity switch will make a difference in the sound, but it does not "fix" phase incoherencies. When only one microphone is picking up a sound, you can not hear changes in polarity (no one can), and phase incoherencies do not exist, so the phase can not be shifted. Phase and polarity issues not only can not be heard, but in fact do not exist without multiple signals. The polarity switch still inverts the polarity of a signal, but you can't hear it.

As far as uses for the polarity switch, there are a number. You want to try the polarity both ways anytime you are using more than one mic on a signal. You will almost always need to flip the polarity on the mic on the bottom of a snare drum. The same is true about micing the back side of a guitar cabinet. This is because you have two mics picking up the same sound source, but facing in opposite directions so that the diaphragms end up moving in opposite directions, magnetically speaking. Contrary to many peoples belief, it is not because the drum or speaker put out sound of different polarity on either side. I some times find it helps to try different polarity positions for different instruments in a mix, particularly if they are playing similar parts or if there is a lot of bleed on the tracks. The polarity switch is also used for setting up an M/S stereo mic pattern. If you do a search for Ancient Ribbon Mics in the microphone forum, there is a post where I described step by step how to set up an M/S mic group.

Man I talk too much. Sorry.

Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 

Attachments

  • phase-polarity demonstra2.jpg
    phase-polarity demonstra2.jpg
    61.7 KB · Views: 433
Last edited:
Is there ever a reason to use it live.

On a vocal mic for instance? How do you spot a phase problem?
 
On a single mic, there's never a problem. However, when I'm mixing theatre stuff (as I do) with multiple microphones, the polarity reverse switch can be very useful.

Picture the scene. Two performers, each with a headworn mic, doing the typical love duet. It sounds great until they put their heads close together for the final verse. Suddenly, both mics are picking up the same stuff but out of phase. Sometimes, flicking the polarity on one of the mics can make it all sound good again. (The alternative is to pull down one of the mics and pick up both performers on one mic--I've done both.)

Alternatively, sometimes you use some floor mics spread across the front of the stage. Even trying to adhere to the 3 to 1 rule, an actor coming way downstage can be picked up on two mics and cause phase problems--so alternating the polarity switch setting on adjacent mics can help. It can also increase your gain before feedback since comb filtering can produce peaks as well as troughs--and the peaks can hasten the onset of feedback.

In all these cases, minor changes in frequency and spacing can make a big difference whether the polarity reverse switch hinders or helps...but it's a tool in the arsenal that is worth a try when phase issues crop up.
 
I thnk the bigger question here is why, on your first post, you've resurrected a 9 year old thread?

Phase is the relationship between two, or more, signals. You can't have a phase problem with a single mic - at least not one that you can correct with a polarity inversion switch...
 
I think the most creative use of reverse polarity was by the Grateful Dead. When playing live they would often connect a second mic, off of a y connector, 180 degrees out of phase with the vocal mic, to cancel out the amplifier stacks behind them on the vocal tracks...
 
This is all stuf that I thought to be the case. THe reason for the question as that on a few occasions I have seen some guys adding an out of phase channel on a Yamaha M7. FOr instance...one mic patched to two seperate channels...one with the phase button on...the other with it off. The first time I saw it was at a church I was mixing at and kind fo brushed it off...then one of their guys came into my space on my M7 and set up the same thing....now I am wondering "did I miss something here? Whats the friggin point?" Thats why I resurrected the thread...I always assumed I understood the phase button so I just wanted to make sure there wasnt something I didnt get. Seems redundant and usless to me especially if you accidently activate both and it cancels itself out. I dunno. Either way...thanks for the answers!
 
I think the most creative use of reverse polarity was by the Grateful Dead. When playing live they would often connect a second mic, off of a y connector, 180 degrees out of phase with the vocal mic, to cancel out the amplifier stacks behind them on the vocal tracks...

The fabled ..... Wall Of Sound!
 
Just pulled up the saved set up and did some investigating. I run a solid renkus heinz Left Center Right set up. What he did is take one channel and patch it into the L-R and the other and patch it into the Center and out of phase. For the life of me I can not figure out WHY you would do this.
 
Back
Top