Gain staging help!

[audiosensi]

Hey everybody! Newbie here with a few questions on how to gain stage VOCALS correctly!

I have provided pictures to give clarity as I'm only tracking no mixing no inserts. Just vocals over instrumental.

Setup-
Mic-U87
Pre Amp-Neve 1073 500lb
Compressor-Tube Tech C1LB compressor
Audio Interface-UAD Arrow
Pro Tools

Explanation of pictures In order

#1) I'm peaking at around -12db and averaging around -15 to-17db on the pre fader meter in which I have it set to "Pro Tools Classic" or am I suppose to be using a different meter (Ex Sample Peak, Venue Peak, ETC....)? With that being said I'm staying in the suggested range of -12 to -18db as I see universally suggested when recording in 24 bit. I assume this is the correct meter to use when to gauge my levels when I hear folks discuss watching your meter to prevent from clipping?

#2,#3,#4) This is the VU meter I'm using to gauge my DBVU's. To my understanding 0VU=-18dbfs which many consider the sweetspot in which you want your average to hover around on the analog meter.

As you can see I'm getting nowhere near there with my vocals.

I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong because the only way I can get it to hover around 0 is to turn up the gain considerably at the risk of introducing floor noise.

#5) This is the size of the wavelength I produce at the levels in comparison to the instrumental. Is this optimum ?

#6) Gain settings on my Neve 1073 LB Pre Amp along with my Audio interface

Sorry for the pictures coming out upside down! On my computer they are showing up normally but when I upload only one is normal and the others to the side.

Thank you in advance and happy to find this board.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

First thing I'd suggest trying is setting the Neve trim control to 0. It looks like it's on about -10dB.

Other than that, are you applying substantial gain reduction? If so, are you applying makeup gain? Are you using properly balanced connection between the different components?

Also, what is the waveform magnification set to in Pro Tools? Waveforms should not really fill the whole height when they're the right level and the magnification is on the default setting.

 

[audiosensi]

First thing I'd suggest trying is setting the Neve trim control to 0. It looks like it's on about -10dB.

Other than that, are you applying substantial gain reduction? If so, are you applying makeup gain? Are you using properly balanced connection between the different components?

Also, what is the waveform magnification set to in Pro Tools? Waveforms should not really fill the whole height when they're the right level and the magnification is on the default setting.

Thank you for the response!

I put the Neve up to 0 on the trim and I begin to peak between -8db and -11db on the meter within pro tools outside of the -12db to -18db range that I see your suppose to stay in when peaking while recording in 24bit. When I raise the gain on the Neve to average around 0 VU on the VU meter the noise floor comes more apparent.

What do you mean by using properly balanced connection between the different components?

I turn the compressor off so there isn't any gain reduction in place.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

By properly balanced connections I mean XLR or 1/4" TRS cables rather than 1/4" TS. TRS plugs have two plastic insulators separating three metal contacts, tip, ring and sleeve. TS plugs have one plastic insulator separating two metal contacts, tip and sleeve. Depending on the way the balanced signal is handled you can potentially lose 6dB by connecting with unbalanced cables.

Don't worry about peak levels other than to be sure they stay well away from 0dBFS. If they're around -11 to -8dBFS I'd say they're fine. The -18dBFS target is for the signal's average level. For something like a vocal the level should cross the -18dBFS mark fairly regularly, not spending most of the time above or below that mark. Of course between lines of lyric the level will go below. A guitar should do about the same thing though different guitars will have substantially different peaks. A picked acoustic will probably have higher peaks compared to an electric with distortion. Percussion and other sources that don't have a lot of sustain need to be set by peak level rather than average. Just keep peaks well under 0dBFS.

 

[rob aylestone]

Could I suggest you stop for a moment, and go back to basic to establish your ground rules. Mic to the interface - make some notes of how much gain is needed to get your levels up to whatever maximum you want to set as your top limit. Then re-route and go mic to neve preamp, and then the output to the interface. The Neve is quite high output, so you'll need to spend time optimising the Neve input level and then the interface level. My guess is it will be very easy to end up with the interface input level right down, so for best performance you'll have to experiment to see if this cause any signal anomalies - squashed gain, or roughness.

Personally - I'm not sold on having the compressor added to that signal chain - it's going to make the gain staging flightly and perhaps too flaky. Small knob moves making big differences that require adjustment up the chain. I understand why you want it that way - but I doubt you will ever find a perfect set and forget gain setting that works easily or repeatedly. Sonically, I'm also doubtful if the chain will be transparent in any modern way - it certainly will be clever and capable - but YOU will need to constantly tweak and perfect. Some people love it I know, but the end level in the DAW can be changed in every single device by huge amounts, and moving the mic, or the subject means you will constalty be starting again - every time to get it optimal. In real terms, you won't bother and will accept compromise to presevre sanity. Let's be honest - you'll be making compression adjustments randomly, loads of stages away from the mix. Fine, once you have a stable system that doesn't get touched - but few studios work like this. Sounds like a huge amount of day to day work - like going back to spending an hour on lineup every morning. I remember that well!