Direct box for use with cassette portastudio?

[Hammerstone]

I posted this in the N00b section but I want to hear your input as well.

I need a passive direct box/DI/something to hook mics up to my Tascam 244. What would you guys recommend? I've been stuck with a crappy input transformer and it doesn't sound particularly good, plus I want something a bit more flexible that I could use for different applications, and over a long period of time.

Ideally I'd go the Lonewhitefly route and pick up a Shure M67 (I still plan on doing that) because if I could get someone to mod it for me (or perhaps do it myself...) to get 4 unbalanced outs, that would be perfect. As it is, I'm leaning toward the Ebtech LLS-2 XLR as a good balance between price, flexibility, and being made in 'Murica. Also in the running were the ART DTI (well, the price is right) and the Radial JDI Duplex (a bit out of my price range, unfortunately).

Since I don't know a whole lot about different brands, if there's something I'm overlooking I'd appreciate you putting it forward. I'm not really into getting an impedance transformer, I'd rather get something more flexible and usable, especially with multiple channels. Anyone care to weigh in?

 

[famous beagle]

To be honest, I didn't know any of it made a difference. I rarely plug straight into my 246, because I normally use a condenser and therefore use an external pre (Presonus TubePre) because I need phantom power. But when I do need to plug in a dynamic (when miking 4 channels at once, for instance), I've just used a cord with female XLR and male 1/4" TS plug, like this:

Hosa XLR Female to 1/4-Inch Male TS Unbalanced Interconnect Patch Cable 5 Foot | Musician's Friend

Or an XLR female to male 1/4" TRS, like this:

Pro Co BPBQXF-10 Excellines Balanced Patch Cable - 10' | Sweetwater.com


Maybe I'm not understanding your question?

 

[Thrust]

I don't quite understand your particular usage but I just bought a live wire form guitar ctr. for 17 bucks that I admit does the job. Its nothing special and Ive heard better but for 17 dollars Im thrilled.

Live Wire SPDI

Good Luck

 

[Hammerstone]

Guys, I don't want cables.

Perhaps it's the bad experience I've had with the one I've used but the sound just hasn't been clean enough. I wouldn't trust the cheap ones, and I don't want to spend money on 4 of the expensive ones when I probably wouldn't get any use out of them except for with the portastudio. And that's something I'm trying to avoid.

Now. According to Peter McIan in The Musician's Guide to Home Recording (which is kind of like saying "According to Jesus, in the Bible" to me right now), direct boxes work better than the converter/adapter cables. I believe it, because the ones that I've found are advertised specifically as a solution to hum produced by ground loops. Also, a (passive) direct box is something that I could get use out of quite a bit as I do live sound. So essentially what I'm looking at is a direct box, but one that has the flexibility to convert signals both ways, so I can go (microphone --> portastudio) for my recording purposes, and also (instrument --> live board) when I'm doing sound. Here are the options that I've found:

$60 ART DTI - made in China
$100 Ebtech LLS-2 XLR - made in America
$350 JDI Duplex - extremely flexible, lots of options, but too expensive. Also, made in Canadia, which I wouldn't hold against it because it seems like a quality product, but for that price I'd rather support a company that manufactures in my own country, given the option.

So this is the direction that I want to move in. They all are 2-channel, all have inputs and outputs for XLR and TS, and they all can convert impedance both ways. Has anyone used any of these? Right now, I'm leaning towards the Ebtech, but I don't know much of the reputations of the companies, so how good are they likely to be? Is there something else along the same line (that I haven't mentioned/don't know about) that you think I should consider?

I guess I kind of expected that a couple people out there had done this too, but I'm getting the impression it's considered kind of overkill. I get that, but I'm trying to see a little bit further down the line than just input converter to portastudio, and I think one of those three products (or one like it) could serve me far beyond my immediate needs, hopefully for many years.

To be honest, I didn't know any of it made a difference. I rarely plug straight into my 246, because I normally use a condenser and therefore use an external pre (Presonus TubePre) because I need phantom power. But when I do need to plug in a dynamic (when miking 4 channels at once, for instance), I've just used a cord with female XLR and male 1/4" TS plug, like this:

Hosa XLR Female to 1/4-Inch Male TS Unbalanced Interconnect Patch Cable 5 Foot | Musician's Friend

Or an XLR female to male 1/4" TRS, like this:

Pro Co BPBQXF-10 Excellines Balanced Patch Cable - 10' | Sweetwater.com

Considering you can't bypass the gain stage of the mixer on the portastudio, I'd say you have to be pretty damn careful to use a condenser mic and a preamp! :O I have tried the cables you suggest, or something like them, and the one I have produces a noticeable harmonic distortion/modulation when I mic both acoustic guitar and piano, which is why I don't really want to use one.

 

[famous beagle]

When I use an external pre with my 4-track, it's simply treated as a line level signal. So you just set the input gain stage to "line" on the portastudio, not "mic." I essentially set the level coming in to the portastudio with the output of the preamp.

I haven't tried the particular Ebtech unit you have listed, but I did try their "Hum Eliminator," and it did absolutely nothing to reduce a hum I had. That's been my experience; others may have had better luck.

I have that book (as well as his other one geared toward cassette portastudios) and know it very well and have read it cover to cover, but I never really noticed that part about the direct box vs. input transformer. But you're right; I see it there in the FAQ now.

Like I said, I normally come in from an external pre, so that's essentially doing the job for me. The only time I've ever run a dynamic mic straight into my 4-track with one of those XLR to 1/4" cables was when miking a drum kit, which is not something I have a whole lot of experience with. I didn't notice anything wrong with the sound, so maybe you just have better ears than I do? I don't know. I've never A/B'ed it with a direct box, though, so maybe I'd be able to hear the difference if I did.

Anyway, if you want something that can be used live as well, then yeah go with a DI box. The only one I have any experience with was the cheap, passive Behringer one. I think it was $20 for one channel. It seemed to do the job perfectly for me, and I never had any problems with.

Anyway, good luck!

 

[famous beagle]

By the way ... are you talking about condenser mics? If so, what are you using for phantom power?

 

[bouldersoundguy]

$60 ART DTI - made in China
$100 Ebtech LLS-2 XLR - made in America
$350 JDI Duplex - extremely flexible, lots of options, but too expensive. Also, made in Canadia, which I wouldn't hold against it because it seems like a quality product, but for that price I'd rather support a company that manufactures in my own country, given the option.

The JDI does not have 1/4" outputs. You could use the XLR output with an appropriately built cable, #5 on the Rane Note 110 page.

The Ebtech is not a direct box at all, it's a line level shifter.

The ART would work, but to use the XLR output you would need the same special cable as with the JDI. To use the 1/4" output you would still need a special cable, #11 on the Rane page. You could use the RCA output with an off-the-shelf RCA-1/4" cable.

 

[Hammerstone]

The JDI does not have 1/4" outputs. You could use the XLR output with an appropriately built cable, #5 on the Rane Note 110 page.

The Ebtech is not a direct box at all, it's a line level shifter.

The ART would work, but to use the XLR output you would need the same special cable as with the JDI. To use the 1/4" output you would still need a special cable, #11 on the Rane page. You could use the RCA output with an off-the-shelf RCA-1/4" cable.

OK I guess I was assuming that these boxes were doing all that on the inside for me. Is there no box out there that will alter impedance both ways and allow me to use just normal cables? Damn, I thought this would be simple... Can you explain then the difference between a direct box (passive or otherwise) and a line level shifter? Also, is it then not possible what other people have suggested, taking a passive direct box and a female-female XLR and making the signal go backward?

Also, regarding the ART, I just saw the Clean Box Pro. THAT seems to be the unit that does what I thought all the others did...

When I use an external pre with my 4-track, it's simply treated as a line level signal. So you just set the input gain stage to "line" on the portastudio, not "mic." I essentially set the level coming in to the portastudio with the output of the preamp.

I haven't tried the particular Ebtech unit you have listed, but I did try their "Hum Eliminator," and it did absolutely nothing to reduce a hum I had. That's been my experience; others may have had better luck.

I have that book (as well as his other one geared toward cassette portastudios) and know it very well and have read it cover to cover, but I never really noticed that part about the direct box vs. input transformer. But you're right; I see it there in the FAQ now.

Like I said, I normally come in from an external pre, so that's essentially doing the job for me. The only time I've ever run a dynamic mic straight into my 4-track with one of those XLR to 1/4" cables was when miking a drum kit, which is not something I have a whole lot of experience with. I didn't notice anything wrong with the sound, so maybe you just have better ears than I do? I don't know. I've never A/B'ed it with a direct box, though, so maybe I'd be able to hear the difference if I did.

Anyway, if you want something that can be used live as well, then yeah go with a DI box. The only one I have any experience with was the cheap, passive Behringer one. I think it was $20 for one channel. It seemed to do the job perfectly for me, and I never had any problems with.

Anyway, good luck!

McIan's other book, Using Your Portable Studio is in the mail, so maybe there are other helpful hints in there. The thing about the input transformer is, I'm sure they work fine for drums and stuff, but for recording piano, acoustic guitar, etc. they are kind of useless, at least the one I have access to.

It's funny you've mentioned condenser mics. I have a few that I've tried if I needed extra level, etc. They're battery-powered, so there's no problem plugging them into the portastudio. The fact that I have to do that at all is somewhat surprising. Good point about the line ins, they are quite lower aren't they? Maybe it would be better to get myself a preamp or two, at least those I could use with my 2340 as well. And I'd get cable #16 from the Rane page to input to the line-ins on the portastudio...

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Also, regarding the ART, I just saw the Clean Box Pro. THAT seems to be the unit that does what I thought all the others did...

That is for line level interfacing, essentially the same as the Ebtech.

Every direct box I'm familiar with has balanced, low impedance output. Microphones have balanced, low impedance output. Your recorder has unbalanced, low impedance inputs. You don't need to change the impedance, just adapt from balanced to unbalanced. It should be a simple matter of building or buying XLR-TS cables with the right wiring: probably pin 3 to sleeve and pin 2 to tip, with pin 1 unconnected at the TS end.

As far as I can tell a direct box of any sort is the wrong solution to your microphone connection trouble, but an active DI might be useful, along with the cable described above, to connect certain instruments.

 

[j.harv]

I didn't really know that you needed a DI box for a mic into a porta studio. I have been just plugging the mic straight into the inputs set to mic,adjusted the trim and recorded.And its sounds pretty damn good. What would be the difference.....?????

 

[Hammerstone]

That is for line level interfacing, essentially the same as the Ebtech.

Every direct box I'm familiar with has balanced, low impedance output. Microphones have balanced, low impedance output. Your recorder has unbalanced, low impedance inputs. You don't need to change the impedance, just adapt from balanced to unbalanced. It should be a simple matter of building or buying XLR-TS cables with the right wiring: probably pin 3 to sleeve and pin 2 to tip, with pin 1 unconnected at the TS end.

As far as I can tell a direct box of any sort is the wrong solution to your microphone connection trouble, but an active DI might be useful, along with the cable described above, to connect certain instruments.

There's been a disconnect, but I think we're finally getting somewhere. I pulled out my 244 manual to make sure: it has high-impedance inputs. 60k ohms. Sorry, I thought they all did, so I don't think I ever specified. So with that, I think something like a line-level shifter is probably what I'm looking for, right?

It seems like semantics to me, so maybe you can explain it better, but wouldn't the definition of a direct box be a unit that takes a high-impedance signal (from say, a bass guitar) and converts it to a low-impedance signal so it can be plugged into a mixer, right? And a line level shifter does the same thing but in reverse, but doesn't it go both ways? ie: I can go low-impedance to high (to my portastudio) and also the other way around, use it as a direct box?

 

[bouldersoundguy]

There's been a disconnect, but I think we're finally getting somewhere. I pulled out my 244 manual to make sure: it has high-impedance inputs. 60k ohms. Sorry, I thought they all did, so I don't think I ever specified. So with that, I think something like a line-level shifter is probably what I'm looking for, right?

A line level shifter is for line level, not mic level. Impedance is not the same as level. That 60k is somewhat high, but it's generally fine to go from a low impedance device into a high impedance input. You don't want to do the opposite, which is when you need a direct box. For a magnetic or piezo pickup with no preamp you'll want an input with 1-10M.

It seems like semantics to me, so maybe you can explain it better, but wouldn't the definition of a direct box be a unit that takes a high-impedance signal (from say, a bass guitar) and converts it to a low-impedance signal so it can be plugged into a mixer, right?

Yes, but mics are already low impedance, and going into a high impedance input should be fine if there's enough gain. Those recorders are designed to use common mics with commonly available XLR-TS cables, so that's what I would do before spending money on something with a transformer or active circuit.

And a line level shifter does the same thing but in reverse, but doesn't it go both ways? ie: I can go low-impedance to high (to my portastudio) and also the other way around, use it as a direct box?

Impedance is not the same as level. The connections look promising and it does change impedance along with level, though I think it may be in the wrong direction. A line level shifter is for line level, not mic level.

 

[Hammerstone]

dguy;4160406]A line level shifter is for line level, not mic level. Impedance is not the same as level. That 60k is somewhat high, but it's generally fine to go from a low impedance device into a high impedance input. You don't want to do the opposite, which is when you need a direct box. For a magnetic or piezo pickup with no preamp you'll want an input with 1-10M [/quote]

Got it.

Yes, but mics are already low impedance, and going into a high impedance input should be fine if there's enough gain. Those recorders are designed to use common mics with commonly available XLR-TS cables, so that's what I would do before spending money on something with a transformer or active circuit.

Yes, but the thing is, I'm not happy with the result of the XLR-TS cable I have, I don't know if I just need one that's higher quality or what. I actually went back and checked what I have and tested it all out. Funny, because the adapter that was giving me trouble that day (Rane #5) wasn't acting up. I did, however, really need to push the gain to get the level I needed (I used an SM57). I also have another cable that I've never been able to use, dunno if it's broken or just wrong for my applications, but it's never worked for me - it's a (Rane #2) XLR-->balanced TS cable. Tried that one out directly into the portastudio. I got *some* level, but it was just way too noisy, unusable.

Impedance is not the same as level. The connections look promising and it does change impedance along with level, though I think it may be in the wrong direction. A line level shifter is for line level, not mic level.

OK, I'll go with you on that, though I don't understand the difference between mic and line level...anyway, I went back and read the tech pub for Ebtech and you're right, they don't ever mention going from +4dBu to -10dBv. Another assumption on my part, probably...

So perhaps it's best to abandon the whole idea, go back and find one very well-made XLR-->unbalanced TS cable and try it out. Either that or just look into a preamp or two for when I really need extra-clean signal...

 

[famous beagle]

I'm sorry you're having so much trouble with this. I've never had any problem. But then again, it's been a long time since I've gone straight in to a portastudio without an external pre. Once I got one of those and had its output wired into the patchbay, I've just always used it, even when running a dynamic. The only exception, like I said, was recording drums when I needed more than two channels at once, and an XLR-TS cable seemed to work fine for that. I don't even know much about it, other than it's by "Pro Co" and at least it's made in the USA.

Good luck.

 

[Hammerstone]

Yeah man, I'm still trying to wrap my head around some stuff. I always thought XLR was balanced and low Z, and 1/4" was unbalanced and high Z. Now, it seems there are different combinations... :O I'm sure those XLR-TS cables work fine for things like bass drums and floor toms, but I think I want something a bit more solid for recording guitars, pianos, etc.

I think external preamp is the way to go, save myself some trouble with this thing, and again, I'll need something nice probably, something I can get lots of use out of. Also, I still want a Shure M67 dammit!

 

[famous beagle]

I hadn't heard of the M67; I just looked it up. Are they supposed to have a real strong colored sound, or what? Why do you want one so bad out of curiosity?

 

[Hammerstone]

Because of that vintage sound, first of all. Lonewhitefly used one on several of his albums, and I dig it. They seem to be pretty versatile, as evidenced by the fact that their output gain is enough for them to be used as preamps. Having 4 channels is also going to be a boon to me when recording on the 2340, because I only have 3 channels there, and can't bounce. They're also something that I could use live, because we only have 12 channels and there have been a few times when we sure (uh, shure) could have used more. Also, they go for pretty cheap, I've been watching them for the last month or so.

Aside from that though, I dunno what the better brands are, though I hear good things about Bellari, I guess they make the most affordable preamps with all-tube electronics, etc.

 

[Beck]

In my portastudio days I used inexpensive Shure and Teac line transformers. They did the trick. You do not need a "Direct box" for a mic.

Shure A85F - Microphone Matching Transformer A85F B&H Photo

You don't need a transformer though unless you're working with long cable runs. A simple XLR to 1/4" cable will work with the 244 input channels, as they accept mics with impedance down to 50 ohms.

 

[Hammerstone]

Yeah, but I've had some sporadic grounding issues with the regular cables, which is kind of what brought this on. Thanks for the suggestion, I decided that for the time being, I might as well get one input transformer, so I got the Audio Technica version from Guitar Center, haven't tried it out yet. Tomorrow, I intend to try out the transformer with a dynamic mic (see if that helps when I really have to boost the gain), and a (battery-powered) condenser mic with XLR-TS cable, compare the sound, etc.

 

[famous beagle]

Please let us know how it goes. I'm interested to hear the results.