Acoustic Project -- Should I buy an SM57?

[rob aylestone]

Ok, so, I think I'm gonna go ahead and use the P170's for the guitar recording. I'm gonna run them through a Focusrite.

But that brings me to a couple of other questions:

Does string type/material matter with relation to microphone? In other words, would I use a different microphone on 80/20 vs Phosphor Bronze? How about for a 12-string?

I've bought a couple of sets of Martin's "Monel" Retro strings that I'm seriously considering using on this project. I also have some Aluminum Bronze and Earthwood strings. I was just wondering if the string material makes a difference in mic usage. I wouldn't think so but thought I'd ask anyhow.

Also, does anyone know where I can get a mic stand that extends to about 30 inches or so? I have one of those microphone "bars" that I can put two mics on (for the X pattern), but the mic stand I have is, for lack of a better way to put it, a "full size" boom-style mic, and I'd really rather not jack with it. I don't wanna spend a lot on it, but I basically just want something I can put in front of me at the right height, put the mics on it, and record.

You’ve got some ideas, but some are a bit mangled. The real answer is simply to try them, listen and adjust and try again. Few recording people care a jot about strings. That’s a player thing. The recordist listens and thinks, wow, that guitar is bright/dull, I better try the XxX first. Like cooking, it’s adjust to taste. Remember that X/Y with the 90 degree, capsules close, technique is designed for stereo, at a distance, with wide sound sources. Two mics on a guitar is a blend. The dark, deep sound from the sound hole and the finger noises and the brightness from the neck. Spread the mics, use two stands or a cross bar it doesn’t matter. You just want the front of the mic to face the wanted sound, and get unwanted sound into its less sensitive side. That, you find out by experimentation, like how far away. Close might be good if the player plays with fingers or horrible if they play with a pick. Recording yourself is easier as you can change more things. If it’s great but just a little dull, then you can swap strings.

it’s worth looking for Jimmy Quango’s recordings on here or YouTube. He’s found an ideal sound for his guitar and his playing. In his case, many times it’s a zoom with its X/Y mics, nothing clever. He found the right place, the right distance and it works. My guitar is rubbish sounding in real life, and my playing sucks. I have some excellent mics. Jimmy’s sounds better.

The secret is experimenting, NOT equipment. some of those fake SM57s are so close you can’t tell. I have one I keep a bit of red tape on for ID. Others sound like they are muffled and nasty. It’s a risk buying one. Do you feel lucky is a great question?

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

You’ve got some ideas, I have some excellent mics. Jimmy’s sounds better.

The secret is experimenting, NOT equipment. some of those fake SM57s are so close you can’t tell. I have one I keep a bit of red tape on for ID. Others sound like they are muffled

If its muffled, that's the equipment, no?

For this type of thing, a tried alternative, is the SM81 Shure. Perfect for acoustic applications.

 

[CoolCat]

Ok, so, I think I'm gonna go ahead and use the P170's for the guitar recording. I'm gonna run them through a Focusrite.

But that brings me to a couple of other questions:

Does string type/material matter with relation to microphone? In other words, would I use a different microphone on 80/20 vs Phosphor Bronze? How about for a 12-string?

I've bought a couple of sets of Martin's "Monel" Retro strings that I'm seriously considering using on this project. I also have some Aluminum Bronze and Earthwood strings. I was just wondering if the string material makes a difference in mic usage. I wouldn't think so but thought I'd ask anyhow.

Also, does anyone know where I can get a mic stand that extends to about 30 inches or so? I have one of those microphone "bars" that I can put two mics on (for the X pattern), but the mic stand I have is, for lack of a better way to put it, a "full size" boom-style mic, and I'd really rather not jack with it. I don't wanna spend a lot on it, but I basically just want something I can put in front of me at the right height, put the mics on it, and record.

man I love those coated strings, they cost a little more but they sure get the squeeky-string scratch out....but you might be a better technique than me.
my ears are super senstive to that freq, of string screeeeeatching..lol
even some pro's have it , though editing it out might be done... the coated helps reduce it is my experience.
nano-something...they call them. it cracks me up when theres good songs ruined by the saw- like noise every time the player slides the hand.

 

[CoolCat]

If its muffled, that's the equipment, no?

For this type of thing, a tried alternative, is the SM81 Shure. Perfect for acoustic applications.
View attachment 129174

I agree but a cheaper was a obsolete Shure PG81 too, I was amazed how good it sounded to the SM81. I did some small comparison years ago. I think a set used was really cheap. I also tried the US vs Mex/Brand new and some claim a big difference but I didnt hear one. The AKG P170 probably do well... beware over-loading/overdriving them maybe?

 

[rob aylestone]

The 81 is very similar to the AKG - bright and sort of a bit clinical - 57s are the opposite - warm and flattering.

Some of the SM57 copies are awful - they sound like somebody tied a cushion over the end.

 

[mjr]

Ok, I think I've figured out what I'm gonna do.

I'm probably gonna buy this mic stand:

On-Stage MS7920B Bass Drum / Boom Combo Mic Stand

Short Mic Stand with 16" Boom and Compact Weighted Base - Black

www.sweetwater.com

So I can use my microphone bar. Right now I'm leaning toward "spaced pair" instead of "X" pattern (though you can convince me otherwise). I'm not sure why, but I saw a simple setup where a guy had a mic bar, and 1 mic on each end of it. One was pointed at about the 12th fret, the other at about the 5th. About 8 inches from the neck itself.

Which leads me to another question:

Is micing a 12-string different? One of the songs I'm going to record I want to do on a 12-string, so I'm just wondering.

 

[Pinky]

Is micing a 12-string different? One of the songs I'm going to record I want to do on a 12-string, so I'm just wondering.

I wouldn't treat it any differently. How you mix it might differ, just because it sounds a bit different which is the point of using it.

 

[Pinky]

I thought about doing it just to save some time.

If you're a master and can record a flawless take. Otherwise now you have two things to flub each time you press record. On top of that, each time you get up, sit down, shift in the chair, etc and reset your position in front of the mics you change ever so slightly the recording dynamics. So again for each recording attempt of vocals/guitar at the same time, you have twice as many things that can differ slightly from take to take. This ends up impacting your ability to perform cuts/comps later, if things sound too different from take to take the ability to compensate at the mixing stage can be compromised. Then there's the bleed between vocal and guitar mics, allowing less control over the final outcome and mixing than if they were done completely independently.

 

[mjr]

@Pinky
First: NARF!

Second: Yeah, I thought about that, so I think I'm just gonna go ahead and do the guitar recording first, then do the vocals after that.

 

[rob aylestone]

Ok, I think I've figured out what I'm gonna do.

I'm probably gonna buy this mic stand:

On-Stage MS7920B Bass Drum / Boom Combo Mic Stand

Short Mic Stand with 16" Boom and Compact Weighted Base - Black

www.sweetwater.com

So I can use my microphone bar. Right now I'm leaning toward "spaced pair" instead of "X" pattern (though you can convince me otherwise). I'm not sure why, but I saw a simple setup where a guy had a mic bar, and 1 mic on each end of it. One was pointed at about the 12th fret, the other at about the 5th. About 8 inches from the neck itself.

Which leads me to another question:

Is micing a 12-string different? One of the songs I'm going to record I want to do on a 12-string, so I'm just wondering.

That is wierd. The sound from the neck at the 5th fret is quite unmusical - it's just rhythm, and plenty of guitar players might do stuff between fret 5 and 12 - you need the sound hole and you need the fretboard - exactly where is to taste, but I have never thought of two mics on the fret board and none on the hole!

Keep in mind a boom stand on a small weight means unstable. Two mics on one even more so. A normal boom stand does the job - standing, or sitting. That stand is great for sneaking a mic up to the snare or the hats.

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

I agree but a cheaper was a obsolete Shure PG81 too, I was amazed how good it sounded to the SM81.

The 81 is very similar to the AKG - bright and sort of a bit clinical - 57s are the opposite - warm and flattering.

Perhaps that is because the AKGP170 and PG81/SM81's are powered condensers? The SM57/58b are but lowly dynamics.

 

[rob aylestone]

Yep, exactly.

 

[LazerBeakShiek]

Two microphones I know work spectacularly together are the..MXL Revelation (1st one) and the Beyer MG201T.

The MG201 Beyer is a hot little mic.. Constantly out of stock.


Put the M201 with the ribbon M160 , thats a good pair and you never even need to hit it with +48V phantoms.

 

[rob aylestone]

Totally agree on the 201 - great mic. Really good on drum overheads too on stage. I've been looking for an extra one to male a pair but they are rare as hell!

 

[keith.rogers]

A spaced pair on acoustic guitar is usually to capture the highs and lows with mics aimed (e.g.) around the neck join and behind the bridge. There’s nothing to record up the fingerboard unless you’re a “tapper” and need to capture the percussive hits. You’ll get a lot more string noises to edit, regardless.

No matter how many mics you use, avoid aiming directly at the soundhole.

In my experience, starting with two mics is much easier using XY (correctly) and working on the position and angle. Anything else risks some phase issues which I’ll assume you may not understand. But, honestly, you’ll learn more about capturing your sound by starting with a single mic and experimenting.

 

[rob aylestone]

My pet hate Keith. X/Y is a stereo technique that used close is is not a stereo technique, because the stereo components are only amplitude differences, not time. Spaced mics on a guitar aren’t A/B either because with a short difference in arrival time, that component is missing too. If the fingerboard is out, and so is right into the sound hole, what have we got. A maximum spread on the instrument of maybe a foot, foot and a half? Move the mics away a bit and they both capture more guitar area.

Two mics panned hard left and right sound strange, so we move the pan positions in till it sounds real. We end up with a darker sound and a brighter sound and we just blend them for taste. That’s sort of wider mono really, so the mics are coincident, or spaced, but that doesn’t make the technique A/B or X/Y or the in-between ones. They are for big and wide sound sources. For me, and it’s just my own opinion, these techniques need something at least piano size, in a space, to work, so even big things like marimbas aren’t really very wide, sound wise.

I totally get that two mics are usually the best, but I just hate the labels we give them, that are poor descriptions of what they’re doing.

 

[keith.rogers]

I don’t disagree with you @rob aylestone but I don’t know a better shorthand for 90-degree coincident pair, and while its origin is in capturing larger sources and spaces, folks do use pairs on acoustic guitars because close up they’re not a point source and most of us don’t have a space to do pairs at a distance.

With that, I’ll reiterate that I’ve almost entirely relied on a single mic on the guitar and am pretty satisfied with the sound. I do usually have at least one other mic recording if I’m singing, maybe two if a friend is playing along, so there’s bleed everywhere and the mics’ tracks send to reverb on a stereo aux/bus, giving me some width without fussing with two mics on one guitar. That’s for really good acoustic folks, and the successful ones are using them in well treated spaces, or perhaps forgiving ones.

 

[rob aylestone]

Got it! I think my way of thinking on guitars is to find two torches and illuminate the parts of the guitar you want to capture, then swap them for mics, adjust to taste, and it's done, but I think your one mic technique is probably easier and with a bit of tweaking, perfectly usable, and then it gets panned to where you want, and usually some reverb too to widen it.