Any tile gurus out there?

[pikingrin]

Google can suck it, and here I am. In the middle of a guest bathroom remodel that is a precursor to the complete gut and rebuild of the master bathroom. Once I get one done (and functional) it's on to the big monster.

I pulled out the linoleum flooring yesterday which, in my opinion was done completely shoddily and wasn't even glued down - perfect for easy removal, maybe I am expecting too much out of modern builders. But I digress... I'm staring at a wood subfloor that is in perfect condition and am faced with a dilemma. Everything in my mind says that I need to put a moisture barrier down under the tile that I'm putting in; being a bathroom it only makes sense. However, I don't want to go through the hassle of tearing up the subfloor to put concrete board down (especially if it's not necessary), and if I just add concrete board on top of the existing subfloor then my flooring is too high and the transition to the hallway carpet will be ridiculous. Toying with the notion of going with the orange plastic material as that height difference would be manageable and much less trim modification would be necessary (trying to reuse the existing trim).

So, after that book, am I correct in the assumption that a moisture barrier is required between the tile and wood subfloor in a bathroom? Or is the grout, once dried and sealed, enough to assure that no moisture would seep through and damage the subfloor or downstairs ceiling?

 

[muttley600]

You need to kill any possible moisture movement in the wood with relation to the tile. Two ways to do it. Replace the wood sub floor or allow the wood to move while the tiles stay where they ere. If you don't those tiles will crack or the wood will warp.

I did a second floor bathroom at home recently that is a sprung wooden floor and used a moisture resistant backing board on which to lay some granite tiles. The board was supplied by the flooring and tile suppliers. Speak to them. They are the experts. We are a bunch of musically inclined odd balls. There are quite a few specialists here but I chose to rely on those that have to stand by their products...

 

[Armistice]

Jimmy is THE tile guru...

 

[Bubba po]

Jimmy is THE tile guru...

He's a bonny tiler.

 

[TAE]

Actually I was a tile setter of the old world style era, a real mud slinging journeyman for over 20 years so I have a clue.

All roads lead to Rome and there's more than one way to skin a cat..some may disagree with what I'll tell you here but as said, I did it for 20 + years, never had a call back and lived off of referrals never having to advertise.

In regards to the moisture barrier I will say no you don't need it..The grout is not "Waterproof" and water could, if you had a flood seep pass..that said
and not to negate it, but once we transitioned from a mud set to the backer boards we ( at least here in Cali) never used a moisture barrier anymore. If you want to put down some black paper before you nail down the board it won't hurt but IMO is unnecessary.

If you want ceramic tile you need to accept that your tile floor is going to be higher than the floor outside your bathroom. You could spend a shit load of time and money re-engineering / recessing your subfloor but as a professional I would never have recommended as such. If you don't the tile will fail. You need a rigid substrate ( backer board ) or the tiles will delaminate / crack and the grout will pop out. A good carpet guy can transition the carpet to the tile using z-strip. They roll the carpet over in the z so it's doubled up against the tile. It's the clean pro solution... I have seen 100's of tile jobs where they didn't and it always ends up looking like hell and the carpet separating from the tile... Z strip is the ticket.

You can PM me if you find your titty in a ringer and I can walk you through the fun and games of installing tile...In the end, me as living proof, a trained monkey can do it.

 

[Armistice]

He's a bonny tiler.

You've been waiting years for the opportunity to say that, haven't you....

 

[Bubba po]

You've been waiting years for the opportunity to say that, haven't you....

Decades.

 

[jimmys69]

Yeah, I have been remodeling bathrooms for 27 years...

Schluter Ditra is likely your best bet. Make sure to use 'modified' thinset mortar to stick the Ditra. Then 'non' modified to set the tile on top.

I am assuming by trim you mean wood baseboard? I would normally remove and reuse them. Caulk in the top and fill the nail holes. Or even better, get the wood out of the room altogether and use tile for the baseboard.

Let me know if you have anymore questions.

 

[pikingrin]

That schluter stuff is what I was looking at in place of backer board. Lowes has a different brand, I think, but it's the same stuff.

And yeah, trim being the baseboards and door trim - baseboards are fine but I will need to cut a little off of the bottom of the door trim to make it fit right.

Thanks TAE and Jimmy, I think I'm on the right track now. All I've gotta do now is wait for my wife to pick the tile out tomorrow...for some reason she doesn't trust me to do that myself!

 

[jimistone]

The floor guys around here tile a lot of wood subfloor houses and also OSB subfloor trailer houses. They basically put down 3/4" treated plywood over top of the subfloor. Some use adhesive and some use the concrete board and quick set on attaching the tile. They add a flex agent to their grout to prevent cracking as the wood expands and contracts due to temperature and humidity. I haven't seen a floor break up when done like this and I know of a few that are several yeas old. I have , on the other hand, seen tile over wood subfloor crack apart when the grout lacks the flex agent. Those are mostly due to DIY'ERS lacking experience and knowledge. Most of the floor guys I know don't use the concrete board....just the thick treated plyboard, the adheasive, and the flex agent in the grout.
Also, on a tile over wood floor, you should spray it with grout sealer once or twice a year

 

[jimmys69]

The floor guys around here tile a lot of wood subfloor houses and also OSB subfloor trailer houses. They basically put down 3/4" treated plywood over top of the subfloor. Some use adhesive and some use the concrete board and quick set on attaching the tile. They add a flex agent to their grout to prevent cracking as the wood expands and contracts due to temperature and humidity. I haven't seen a floor break up when done like this and I know of a few that are several yeas old. I have , on the other hand, seen tile over wood subfloor crack apart when the grout lacks the flex agent. Those are mostly due to DIY'ERS lacking experience and knowledge. Most of the floor guys I know don't use the concrete board....just the thick treated plyboard, the adheasive, and the flex agent in the grout.
Also, on a tile over wood floor, you should spray it with grout sealer once or twice a year

Nobody in their right mind installs tile directly to a wood floor. The whole idea of using an underlayment is to 'decouple' from the subfloor material. The fact that wood reacts to temperature/humidity changes differently from a flooring such as ceramic/porcelain/stone tile is the whole reason for this.

There is no grout that can 'flex' enough to hold a poor installation.

#1, Solid substrate. That means minimal deflection or movement. No mold or water damage-the obvious...

#2, Appropriate means of decoupling from the solid substrate. Sometimes in older homes there is no standard 3/4" plywood or OSB subfloor. If directly to an old plank floor or worse MDF, then a 1/4" or 1/2" Hardibacker or similar is used to add to the integrity of the structure below the installation while at the same time having the decoupling from the substrate.

#3, The tile and grout have absolutely nothing to do with waterproofing or integrity of a floor or wall itself. That is all done by proper use of materials determined by the type of installation-previous to the installation of the tile itself. A shower for instance; should hold water on it's own prior to tile installation.

#4, Proper installation of tile is necessary for it to actually adhere. Mechanical bonding is something that is commonly overlooked. Flat troweling 'pressing the mortar' into the underlayment is very important. The one thing I find many installers forget, is that porcelain tile does not absorb moisture. You have to back butter 'create a mechanical bond to' a porcelain tile in order for it to actually create the bond. I have pulled out floors that resembled potato chips spread on the floor because of this missed step. One recently the owner sold 300 square feet of poorly installed tile with no mortar stuck to the bottom on a 600 square foot job. Maybe an extra hour of work would have saved them redoing the whole floor...


I have not used concrete board (Durock) in 15 years. Some of the old school guys (which I am becoming) still use that crap. It is in my opinion completely inferior as well as bullshit to work with.

For floors I use Schluter Ditra or Ditra heat for heated floor installations when the subfloor is adequately solid. A bit more expensive but less time to install.

For floors with a bit of flex, I will either replace the subfloor or use Hardibacker 1/4" or 1/2" depending on the level of the floor to other installations.

For walls I typically use DensShield for tub surrounds. It is not rated for submersion in water so in concrete shower pan installations, I use Hardibacker for the lower 3 feet.

There can also be issues as to whether to use a waterproof backer-board on exterior walls with a vapor barrier if there is not space for the wall to breathe. Condensation between two walls is just an excuse for mold to grow.


Every remodel has it's own particular needs.

Also, there are much better grout products and sealers available today that do not require so much maintenance.


I feel like I am on a different forum now.

 

[jimistone]

Nobody in their right mind installs tile directly to a wood floor. The whole idea of using an underlayment is to 'decouple' from the subfloor material. The fact that wood reacts to temperature/humidity changes differently from a flooring such as ceramic/porcelain/stone tile is the whole reason for this.

There is no grout that can 'flex' enough to hold a poor installation.

#1, Solid substrate. That means minimal deflection or movement. No mold or water damage-the obvious...

#2, Appropriate means of decoupling from the solid substrate. Sometimes in older homes there is no standard 3/4" plywood or OSB subfloor. If directly to an old plank floor or worse MDF, then a 1/4" or 1/2" Hardibacker or similar is used to add to the integrity of the structure below the installation while at the same time having the decoupling from the substrate.

#3, The tile and grout have absolutely nothing to do with waterproofing or integrity of a floor or wall itself. That is all done by proper use of materials determined by the type of installation-previous to the installation of the tile itself. A shower for instance; should hold water on it's own prior to tile installation.

#4, Proper installation of tile is necessary for it to actually adhere. Mechanical bonding is something that is commonly overlooked. Flat troweling 'pressing the mortar' into the underlayment is very important. The one thing I find many installers forget, is that porcelain tile does not absorb moisture. You have to back butter 'create a mechanical bond to' a porcelain tile in order for it to actually create the bond. I have pulled out floors that resembled potato chips spread on the floor because of this missed step. One recently the owner sold 300 square feet of poorly installed tile with no mortar stuck to the bottom on a 600 square foot job. Maybe an extra hour of work would have saved them redoing the whole floor...


I have not used concrete board (Durock) in 15 years. Some of the old school guys (which I am becoming) still use that crap. It is in my opinion completely inferior as well as bullshit to work with.

For floors I use Schluter Ditra or Ditra heat for heated floor installations when the subfloor is adequately solid. A bit more expensive but less time to install.

For floors with a bit of flex, I will either replace the subfloor or use Hardibacker 1/4" or 1/2" depending on the level of the floor to other installations.

For walls I typically use DensShield for tub surrounds. It is not rated for submersion in water so in concrete shower pan installations, I use Hardibacker for the lower 3 feet.

There can also be issues as to whether to use a waterproof backer-board on exterior walls with a vapor barrier if there is not space for the wall to breathe. Condensation between two walls is just an excuse for mold to grow.


Every remodel has it's own particular needs.

Also, there are much better grout products and sealers available today that do not require so much maintenance.


I feel like I am on a different forum now.

A guy i goto church with goes directly to the plywood with the tile...when laying tile on a wood floor. He is one of the best floor guys around and stays very busy. He has done hundreds of floors. He has been installing floors for 25+ years. I'm not saying that his way is right and any other way is wrong. I'm just saying that he has a solid reputation for floor work that holds up and looks good. So, I think the "nobody in their right mind would lay tile directly on wood" comment may be incorrect.
I've layer several tile floors mostly in my own home(s). I used the hardi-board over 3/4" plywood. He told me that the 3/4 plywood is all you really need ad then use the flex grout. He has a store also that sells tile, grout, hardiboard, quickset, laminate and hardwood flooring...and just about anything you need for flooring. A lot of contractors buy from him.
Anyway, you are very knowledgeable and do great work as well immsure.
Anyway, I haven't done a tile floor since he told.me that

 

[jimmys69]

A guy i goto church with goes directly to the plywood with the tile...when laying tile on a wood floor. He is one of the best floor guys around and stays very busy. He has done hundreds of floors. He has been installing floors for 25+ years. I'm not saying that his way is right and any other way is wrong. I'm just saying that he has a solid reputation for floor work that holds up and looks good. So, I think the "nobody in their right mind would lay tile directly on wood" comment may be incorrect.
I've layer several tile floors mostly in my own home(s). I used the hardi-board over 3/4" plywood. He told me that the 3/4 plywood is all you really need ad then use the flex grout. He has a store also that sells tile, grout, hardiboard, quickset, laminate and hardwood flooring...and just about anything you need for flooring. A lot of contractors buy from him.
Anyway, you are very knowledgeable and do great work as well immsure.
Anyway, I haven't done a tile floor since he told.me that

Maybe it is incorrect if someone is using a special product for such. There are those new products out there. I am not trying to argue.

I just myself do not see how a cementitious product can be both stable enough to hold tile while also being flexible enough to deal with the movement/expansion of the substrate. My head just can't wrap around that with a single adhesion method.

That being said, the issue resides in homeowners watching things on DIY network or youtube videos that show inadequate ways of installing. Sure, you can set tile directly over a vinyl floor with 'this' product. But it will fail much more quickly than if a simple step is taken. Just my opinion and why I am still in business today. I do not cut corners ever.

Anyway, to each their own. I hate Protools. pththpth!

lol