Noise and the Fostex VF160

[wow]

I'm looking to buy a VF160 and some related accessories. I wanted to know if I need to buy a Rocktron Hush pedal (or comparible unit) for suppressing unwanted noise when recording (vocals, single-coil guitar, etc.).

Does the VF160 have a built in noise suppressor with adjustable threshold that I can use when recording?

Do I have to use buss recording to make use of it?

Any problems associated with using it in buss recording?

Thanks for any help you can provide.

[Ed Dixon]

Where will the recordings be done? Will it be a room setup for recording, or just a quite room in a home?

Quite rooms and good vocal mics can produce pretty quiet recordings.

Guitar recording is another story, expecially with single coil PUs. Most guitar effects units today include noise reduction options. I use the NR options in guitar effects and that works well.

Ed

[wow]

I will use a quiet room.

The question is whether or not I'll need some sort of outboard noise suppressor or if the VF160 has one I can use when recording each track.

I've found that, in my house, there is always some ambient noise when recording and I don't want any. Whether it's single-coil pickup noise or slight breathing before I sing.

Does the VF160 have a built in noise suppressor with adjustable threshold that I can use when recording?

[Ed Dixon]

I would try it without and see how it goes. You can always use PC based editing to quickly remove front and end extra sound.

Ed

[wow]

So it sounds like the VF160 doesn't have any sort of noise suppressor or noise gate.

[billisa]

Originally posted by wow
So it sounds like the VF160 doesn't have any sort of noise suppressor or noise gate.

I own a VF80, not a 160, but I am pretty sure the 160 does not have a noise gate or any suppression. There may be a mic simulation effect that has a gate setting (mine does) but in general I think your answer is no.

Partly, because the VF's are so quiet, using a condensor, you WILL hear everything that's nearby, especially your breathing. Mechanically, comparatively, the VF's are very quiet, but the condensors will pick-up the hard drive whirring noise too!

I made myself a "sound booth" using PVC pipe and movers blankets. Works like a charm, but I still record at night to avoid the sound of lawn mowers, AND I still breathe, often.

Overall, I think the VF160 is a great machine, and I wish I'd gotten one (more tracks than I now have).

[Ed Dixon]

When I do vocals, the vocalist is in the next room standing on a soft mat with doors closed. Otherwise, as Billisa said, a good condensor mic will pickup even mouse clicks.

I then move vocal tracks to PC and delete any portions before and after vocals, as well as between verses, etc.

Ed

[robjh22]

Billisa, I don't know if I agree that my 80 is all that quiet. The internal drive (or something) is turning at all times when powered
up, and you can hear it in the play back until you delete it with that scrub feature someone here educated me on. Fostex itself acknowledges there's some internal noise generated.

[Ed Dixon]

Is this noise coming through a mic that is near the machine, or thorugh some other source?

If coming through the mic, then more mic further away or in next room.

If coming through the system itself, then that sounds like a real problem.

Ed

[billisa]

Originally posted by robjh22
Billisa, I don't know if I agree that my 80 is all that quiet. The internal drive (or something) is turning at all times when powered
up, and you can hear it in the play back until you delete it with that scrub feature someone here educated me on. Fostex itself acknowledges there's some internal noise generated.

Hey Rob,

This is what I wrote: "Mechanically, comparatively, the VF's are very quiet, but the condensors will pick-up the hard drive whirring noise too!"

What you're hearing is the Hard Drive spinning. Compared to other machines I've heard, it's "comparatively" quiet. A TASCAM 788 I tried had a Hard Drive that sounded like a small can opener.

Even so, a condensor will absolutely pick up the VF80's mechanical self-noise. I built myself a rectangular sound booth out of PVC pipe and heavy mover's blankets. Works like a charm.
Compared to a PC, the VF80 is VERY quiet, but with such a low noise floor we hear everything -- stuff that used to be buried under tape hiss. Like the motor noise on reel-to-reel decks.

If you want TOTAL quiet, you'll have to either place your mic in another room, build some kind of sound booth around the VF80, or build what I did.

[glynb]

I'm certainly no expert, but I wouldn't have thought having some 'noise supressent' feature would be the way to go anyway. Why? Because inevitably some such feature would have 'artifacts' and alter the sound of the recording in some way.
Much better to tackle unwanted noise at the recording stage than to try and mask or 'remove' it later IMHO.

The vf160 is a great unit for the money, I don't know anyone so far who has purchased one and regrets it... though no doubt now I've thrown down the gauntlet someone will pick it up!!

[billisa]

Originally posted by glynb
I'm certainly no expert, but I wouldn't have thought having some 'noise supressent' feature would be the way to go anyway.
The vf160 is a great unit for the money, I don't know anyone so far who has purchased one and regrets it... though no doubt now I've thrown down the gauntlet someone will pick it up!!

I totally agree. Maybe some really noisy things need a "gate", but overall I can't see going back to the days of Dolby. Not even 25 years ago we used to think 65db S/N without Noise Reduction was really good (75db with). The VF80/160 get about 92db as is. Unless you're just recording total silence 92db is pretty damn good. I also think the Fostex's are the best units for the money available. VERY stable, very well thought out...

[wow]

I think that a built in noise gate would have been an essential addition when designing a digital 16 track home studio.

Digital recorders create very little noise when recording (unlike the tape hiss of an analog unit). Every breath, squeak of a chair, neighborhood dog bark, and hum of the single-coil pickups will be recorded on the VF160. And with 16 tracks, that's a problem. Imagine recording four guitars (for different parts), a bass, lead vocals, and two backup vocals without a noise gate. If a part of the song has any silence of any one of those instruments, you're going to hear all kinds of noises.

Obviously I can buy a Rocktron Hush pedal or use another outboard noise gate, but I think it's a huge oversight that Fostex didn't include one at all.

As an aside, there is an advantage to being able to adjust noise gates for each track after recording (as opposed to before). If you can adjust the threshold, attack speed and release time, you can eliminate more unwanted sounds while avoiding clipping off the sound of an intentional fade of vocal or a guitar note. If you do all the gating when recording, you may set the threshold too high or low and unintentionally record things you don't want or clip off things you wanted.

I do realize, by the way, that a hardcore user can go in and digitally cut out all the areas of silence for various instruments. But with 16 tracks that's more work than one should have to do.

It sounds like some of you have got it down to where you avoid recording unwanted noise, but you shouldn't have to build an enclosure, avoid breathing when recording vocals, or record in the middle of the night to avoid neighborhood noise. Fostex should have built in a simple noise gate. It arguably wouldn't have even cost them anything to put the algorithm in the software.

[Tubedriver]

but there is also the argument that if you are recording something really beautiful, and have a great sounding room, you wouldnt use a noise gate at all.

Placing a noise gate in the chain kind of states that what you are recording in - or using - is in some way inferior.

The logic is I suppose, that you have a machine capable of extremely quiet and faithful recordings, so why are you messing this up with a noisy environment?! Better to spend your money on fixing up your environment or equipment rather than a Hush unit.

I would prefer having a compressor in the input chain over a noise gate any day. And before that, if they had to make a choice, I'd prefer better mic preamps.

I can see why Fostex have left a noise gate out of the equation.

[Kramer]

Are there any stand alone recorders with built-in noise gates?If there are,I've never seen or heard about them.

[Tubedriver]

Originally posted by Kramer
Are there any stand alone recorders with built-in noise gates?If there are,I've never seen or heard about them.

my point exactly

[wow]

Take a look. Nearly ALL digital recorders around $1,000 come with built in noise gates. Korg, Roland/Boss, Yamaha, etc. My old Boss BR8 from three years ago even came with one built in. The Fostex is the rare exception.

Tubedriver writes: "Placing a noise gate in the chain kind of states that what you are recording in - or using - is in some way inferior."

Uh, no. It states the engineers of the VF160 realized they have a wonderful unit capable of exceptionally clean recordings and realized that some extraneous noise may leak in while recording some tracks. Old analog machines used to mask light background noise behind the annoying tape hiss.

Keep in mind, there is no DISADVANTAGE to having a noise gate at least available in the unit. You don't have to use it.

[billisa]

Originally posted by wow
Take a look. Nearly ALL digital recorders around $1,000 come with built in noise gates. Korg, Roland/Boss, Yamaha, etc.

I wouldn't be against having a noise gate available, but the brands you mention, that are 16 track machines, all cost significantly more than the Fostex -- which can easily be had, with the CDR for $850... Perhaps it's an omission, or a deliberate price conscious design that assumes a user may want to have an external gate, but I don't think there's a more stable, capable machine out there, well under a grand that can do what the VF160 does. I wish I owned one. Personally, I'd take a larger LCD than an onboard noise gate. The first improvement enhances all the recordings whereas the latter may only be used very occasionally.

[wow]

billisa:

What kind of recorder do you have? I've seen your posts here and on the AW16G site, and I thought for sure you were a Fostex VF160 man.

I've been on the fence in deciding whether to buy a Fostex VF160 or a Yamaha AW16G for several months now. This noise gate business has leaned me towards the AW16G, not because I'm so fanatical about noise gates, but I am excited about having various dynamics available for each track pre and post recording.

The Yamaha is $150 more than the Fostex, but the idea of being able to adjust a compressor, 4-band fully parametric EQ, a noise gate (or limiter), and an exciter for EACH track independantly AFTER I've recorded the tracks dry is pretty awesome.

Btw, I think a larger LCD display would be a bonus on the Fostex.

[billisa]

Originally posted by wow
billisa:

What kind of recorder do you have? I've seen your posts here and on the AW16G site, and I thought for sure you were a Fostex VF160 man.

I own, and love, my VF80. I am only a wanna-be VF160 man... But I do lurk about on various boards because I learn a lot from doing so...

Here's what I think... The Fostex VF80/160's are very, very well built, very stable machines. My sense is the AW16 has more in the way of effects. I also have the sense that the AW16's crash more often than the VF160's and are harder to get to know (perhaps because of the abundance of effects, etc.?). For some reason, Yamaha decided to use a 2.5" drive, while the Fostex's use a 3.5" (easily upgradable). From checking out the AW16.com site since January it seems to me that the AW16's are more finicky than the VF160. In the "bugs" section there one often hears about system freezes and advice to reformat the HD, defrag the HD and "optimize" songs...

With the VF160 you hardly ever, if ever, hear about system crashes, reformatting etc...

As indicated, I own a VF80 and would love a VF160 because of the extra tracks and capabilities it offers. But I'm sure you could make phenomenal music with a AW16. I do think though that the VF160's are more stable. Pro Audio Review (in different issues)recently did reviews of both.

[glynb]

You have obviously researched the two options well and the noise gate thing is seemingly very important to you, so you make your choise, that's the free market in operation.

Would it be nice if the vf160 had the noise gate, yes it sure would, but it hasn't so what can you do other than buy something external to do the job, or move your stuff to the PC environment and do the job with software (which seems to be the favoured option for many/most people anyway come mastering stage).

If you think the Yamaha is better value for money, then go with it. I am very happy with my vf160, but maybe my needs are more simple than other peoples?

Whatever you decuide on, I hope you have as much fun as I'm having with it. Good luck.

[wow]

glynb:

Hey thanks. Well put. I hope I'm not pissing anyone off on this forum. I'm not trying to knock anyone's equipment or certainly the VF160. My post just started with a query and went from there.

If you only knew the trouble I'm having deciding on which unit to buy (the VF160 or the AW16G). Ha! I'm driving my girlfriend nuts! We were sitting on the couch last week when I started talking to her about parametric EQ's. She just deadpanned and said, "I know, I know, you've told me all of this like three times!" Ha! I guess that's my cue to shut up.

I want the 16 independant tracks, the stability and simplicity of the VF160 with the advanced features of the AW16G. But I want it all for under $1,000. Aye there's the rub. My problem is that I'm a demanding customer. Hehehe!

[glynb]

You may be demanding, but are you also impatient?

If you are prepared to wait 12 months or so you'll probably get EXACTLY what you want for the price you want to pay, as technology changes all the time and manufacturers throw in new features for less money.

(Ah, but the modern consumer is encouraged to want it NOW and get it NOW, on credit if needs be, so patience is not encouraged!!)

In any case if you wait 12 months from what you're saying the girlfriend will have gone round the twist or left you!

If you are young then hang on a while and you'll get more for less money. If you're getting on like me and don't have much time left, just make a decision and get recording that music, life's too short to delay!

[chazba]

Thanks guys for all the info. I've been quietly observing from the sidelines of cyberspace and I am starting to get a feel for the VF160/AWG debate. Both seem to be very capable machines. Got another question for you all...Anybody have experience/info on the older VF-16, which preceeded the VF-160. I have a chance to pick one up real cheap . I'm sure there must be some caveats associated with such a wonderful deal, like " owned by a little old lady who only used it to record gospel quartets" or some such. Any info appreciated....
chazba

[billisa]

Originally Posted by chazba

Thanks guys for all the info. I've been quietly observing from the sidelines of cyberspace and I am starting to get a feel for the VF160/AWG debate. Both seem to be very capable machines. Got another question for you all...Anybody have experience/info on the older VF-16, which preceeded the VF-160. I have a chance to pick one up real cheap . I'm sure there must be some caveats associated with such a wonderful deal, like " owned by a little old lady who only used it to record gospel quartets" or some such. Any info appreciated....
chazba

New VF160's are $799.00 with the built-in CDR... Great buy!