Web Site Development - Help

[DigitalDon]

Ok I'm a newbie to web site development. I've read a lot on it but haven't made my first attempt. I need to build one for our band. Suggestions or recommendations for a newbie? Internet sources or books I should read? Programs such as Frontpage, Netobjects Fusion (I have ver 7.0), or others? I really don't have the time to learn HTML but should I consider it anyhow? I won't be doing all the Flash stuff though. I'm on a dial up connection (like too many other people) and hate to wait for that stuff to load. Still, I'm wide open to suggestions on anything.

Thanks,
DD

[AlChuck]

Internet sources or books I should read?

I highly recommend looking at http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/ or other such sites to get a sense of what you should shoot for, what's possible and what's advisable, etc.

Programs such as Frontpage...?

I recommend avoiding FrontPage. If you must get a tool like that, Macromedia Dreamweaver seems to be the most widely respected one.

I really don't have the time to learn HTML but should I consider it anyhow?

Yes -- it's easy, and it will allow you to compensate for the limitations and flaws in your "make websites easily" software, whcichever you choose.

[DigitalDon]

Thanks Al. That's a very interesting site. I have the "HTML for Dummies" book so I guess I should at least read it.

[glynb]

The easiest way to get a slick web site up and running is to find a site by a pro that you like, look at the source HTML code and copy it. Then customise to your own tastes (and strip out any references to the original copyright owner of course!) .

Couple of problems.
1. It's illegal, cos you're taking someone else's work.
2. You DO need to understand HTML to make it work!

It really would be worth taking time to get to know HTML if you intend to maintain the web site for the long term. WYSIWYG programs will make it really easy to get a basic site up and running, but if anything goes awry ( and it will eventualy) you'll need to look at the background HTML code to fix it.

www.dynamicdrive.com (I think) has some nice freebies you can use.

The best tip I can give, for music biz is this. Look at the photographs you are planning to use. Do they look professional? If they look like a sanp hot taken by your grandma after a few glasses of sherry then forget it. Get some decent atmospheric pics done that portray the right image for your band. If you can't get decent pics, then don't publish any until you have some. A bad picture just says 'amateur' no matter how good the text and layout of your site are IMHO.

[powderfinger]

Dreamweaver is a whole lot easier to learn than HTML for a non-computer programer. It's a very visual program that takes a while to get used to, but I would definitely recommend that over learning how to program in HTML unless you've done some programming of some sort before.

[DigitalDon]

Programming? I did some programming in Basic back in the '70s. You know, last century. Does that count???

I've read good stuff on Dreamweaver. Might have to check it out but still think I should go ahead and learn HTML.

DD

[AlChuck]

Pet peeve alert:

Writing HTML IS NOT PROGRAMMING!!!!
So don't worry, Don, even if you never wrote a line of programming code, you can still do HTML.

[RDuke]

Here's an excellent HTML Tutorial to get anyone started. Got some popups, but otherwise fine instruction.

Rick

[sae]

Originally posted by AlChuck

Writing HTML IS NOT PROGRAMMING!!!!

Roger that!! You are not creating a program but rather manipulating one (web browser) to do what you want!

Coding would be more accurate

[AlChuck]

I don't even like to use the word "coding" because of the implication that you are writing "code," another way of saying you are programming.

Since HTML is technically a markup language, I prefer to call it "marking up," which is technically all you are doing -- putting indicators around text to tell the borser how to display it. But I usually just call it "making a web page" or "writing a web page."

[powderfinger]

Originally posted by AlChuck
I don't even like to use the word "coding" because of the implication that you are writing "code," another way of saying you are programming.

Okay, I see your point......maybe I should not have used the actual word "programming" (even though I still feel HTML is a programming language.......a very basic one, but one none the less).........regardless, I'm not here to argue the semantics of it.....

My point that was missed was........and still is........one should not think they can (w/o any previous programming or coding experience) buy a HTML for dummies book and have a great looking webpage with some nice advanced features in the matter of a few hours.......a coding background can be very helpful in picking up the concepts of how HTML works............to a person w/ a computer science or programming background, HTML might not be considered programming..........but to someone w/ no background in computers other than surfing the net....HTML is definitely programming.......

Also, Dreamweaver is a good way to learn HTML....you can split screen the visual with the actual source code....create the things visually and see how they are written in HTML........

[glynb]

A couple of further things which come to mind in addition to advice on pictures.

Think about your colour scheme. There are certain combinations which look amateur for example yellow text on a black background, and some are hard to read like blue text on black. Also don't use too large a font, its not necessary.

Like I said, go to the professional sites of bands/artists in your genre and see what they have done and what kind of design they've chosen. Whilst they will most likely be very elaborate sites using Flash etc, you can still look at things like design and colours and fonts and learn from them.

Just my 2 cents.

[invisiblemute]

How much time do you think it would take you to learn HTML? My guess is that it would take anyone who really works at it and isn't afraid of computers less than a week to throw up a decent site. HTML is the easy part. Designing a good site takes attention and experience.

I haven't used Dreamweaver in ages because it used to horredously mess up nice clean code. But this was several versions ago so it may be much better now. But it honestly wouldn't be that hard to throw something up with just Explorer and hand coding in Notepad.

One of my favorite sites is Webmonkey
http://www.webmonkey.com

Glynb, I have to disagree with equating color with good or bad design. There is almost a time a place for everything. A bad site to me is one that wants to be functional yet has tons of crap flying around the screen and text on a very busy and colorful background. Stay away from Flash for a bit. There is often too much temptation to go overboard and animate things for no good reason.

Good luck. Feel free to PM me if you need any pointers. It's a slow time for freelance web developers.

[powderfinger]

Originally posted by invisiblemute
How much time do you think it would take you to learn HTML? My guess is that it would take anyone who really works at it and isn't afraid of computers less than a week to throw up a decent site. HTML is the easy part. Designing a good site takes attention and experience.

This is very true for people who as you said, "aren't afraid of computers", it might take a week to learn the basics, and several more to learn some advanced stuff. But people who are good with computers often forget how hard it can be for others to do things on a computer. I've had to teach my brother how to save something as a different file type....I've had to teach my mother how to use an attachment...about 5 times...........so for someone like that, HTML, despite its ease to you and me, could be a daunting task..........

[Jeff_D]

i think graphics are the hardest part--- and i like dreamweaver- its not easy to come up with something that looks good- also make sure that your site looks good at any user screen resolution- have fun

[tanlith]

Something to note:

I've been doing webdesign for a few years now (as a hobby, not professionally)

And I love Dreamweaver... not because it's an "easy solution", but because there's an option where you can view the source code while you make the page in the editor... I learned a LOT about HTML real quick that way... Eventually when i started adding Java scripts that I pilfered from various resources, I started learning a lot about that too... now I use Dreamweaver and spend most of my time in the Code View window, but still like the ability to see a generalization of the results in the 'work area".

And if i wanna see it in a web browser all i gotta do is hit the F12 key and it loads it from the temp file into IE so i can test it!



- Tanlith -

[glynb]

"Glynb, I have to disagree with equating color with good or bad design. There is almost a time a place for everything. A bad site to me is one that wants to be functional yet has tons of crap flying around the screen and text on a very busy and colorful background. Stay away from Flash for a bit. There is often too much temptation to go overboard and animate things for no good reason"
Of course there may be the odd occasion where dark blue text on a black background might be required, but I would think that's rare as it is difficult to read. The point I wanted to make was that if you make the site as easy to read and pleasant as possible people are less likely to leave early. And colour should be considered in the design. I completely agree with you about 'flying grafix' and flashing boxes, the odd one is OK to draw attention to something but animated gifs (not Flash) all over the place looks 'cheap' IMO.

A decent site in a week using HTML? Sorry I disagree there. Someone with a good knowledge of computers and HTML experience, maybe. Buit a beginner would need far longer to get a DECENT site up. AS beginner could maybe get a reasonable looking site up in a week using Dreamweaver or some such program where they don't have to know the 'code'.

Oictures/grafix are another area where much time is needed before people are able to manipulate images and customise them fro the web and produce gifs etc.

I'm certainly no expert BTW, just an amateur. Others here will have far more knowledge than I. Those interested can check out my efforts here:
www.dr-rox.co.uk
BTW, because the site has developed over time along with my 'skills' it contains many examples of bad design, which I haven't got time or inclination to tackle!

It's not flashy, but it's tidy and does the job. Suggestions welcome.

[13th_Omen]

If you copy source code it is not only illegal but it is highly disrespectful, unless of cousre you give the original writer credit and get his permission. HMTL is easy and you should at least learn the basics. Front Page is great, contrary to what I have heard here. I use it, as well as Dreamweaver. I only use Dreamweaver for inserting Flash, but Frontpage 2003 has all the gimmicks now. I love the fact that I may actually be somewhat of an "expert" in one of the many threads here! If you need any assistance or maybe want me to do your site feel free to contact me!

13th Omen Web Site

[freshmattyp]

I'm pretty fond of Netobjects Fusion. I'm still using MX. My band's site is pretty basic, mostly just information. I try to stay away from animation, it's so easy to go overboard and make your site look crappy and amateurish.

Just an opinion - You can't go wrong with a black background.

www.sinsofthepioneers.com

[tanlith]

Originally posted by 13th_Omen
If you copy source code it is not only illegal but it is highly disrespectful, unless of cousre you give the original writer credit and get his permission. HMTL is easy and you should at least learn the basics. Front Page is great, contrary to what I have heard here. I use it, as well as Dreamweaver. I only use Dreamweaver for inserting Flash, but Frontpage 2003 has all the gimmicks now. I love the fact that I may actually be somewhat of an "expert" in one of the many threads here! If you need any assistance or maybe want me to do your site feel free to contact me!

13th Omen Web Site

Preach on Brother omen!

I agree fully! Stealing HTML code from a web site is no different then someone stealing your music! Nothing worse than someone ripping of someone elses web work ... and then screaming and crying that someone stole their song idea!

people crack me up!

- Tanlith -

[glynb]

Ripping code and ripping someone elses song ? Interesting analogy.

Songwriters often take another writer's chord structure, or a copy a riff and adapt it, or an arrangment, parts of a melody, etc. either deliberately or subconsciously. NOTHING in popular music is 100% original, it is all drawn from some things that went before hopefully with a little spark of originality thrown in.

With HTML code it's very similar. So if I see a nice piece of 'code' (some have already argued its not code anyway) used in a site which could be used on my site then what do I do? Look at it and start to type out every dot and commar myself or just copy it into notepad? Others may have time to type it all out, I don't! In order to copy code and adapt it your own purposes you have to first understand HTML in any case so copying just saves time. In any case some sites offer code to do certain jobs which you are invited to copy, it just saves time - I place a link to these sources on my site.

It's not the bits and pieces of copied code that are important, it is how you assemble them into something 'original' that matters. Just like song writing, taking a song chord pattern from a well known song and making it something of your own, so no-one recognises where it came from. I'm not saying anything terrible here, many great song writers do this.

We're all magpies...... as someone else once said!

[13th_Omen]

I remember when I actyally did write all the HTML "by hand". Of course once you learn it well, you learn to be faster and use dufferent shortcuts (ie. templates). I am not saying going to dynamic drive is a bad thing, I use their scripts a lot, but simply copying an entire source code and inserting your band's name is pretty lame. I've done this before simply just to do it (i used to make sites when i was bored), and it actually will take you longer than if you just started from scratch. Laziness is no excuse to steal someone else's work, just as the price of CD's nowadays is no excuse to download music for free (yes that is stealong) and the high priced cable is no excuse to climb the telephone poll and wire it up for free.

[AlChuck]

Stealing HTML code from a web site is no different then someone stealing your music!

What a silly idea! You wouldn't expect people to not use the same alphabet because someone else used it? Or make up their own punctuation marks?

Or, to use the song analogy, you use the same twelve notes and the same diatonic chords and common rhythms for certain feels -- does that constitute ripping someone off? Hardly...

HTML is not some sort of creative work of art, it's freakin' markup -- it's code that tells the browser how to display something. One can learn from looking at another page just like you can learn from reading books how to construct coherent sentences. There are no creative algorithms there that someone can steal like there might be in programming code.

Now if you copy someone's graphical design and site layout slavishly, so that it looks the same, and say that you "designed" it, well, maybe you have a point...

[Son of Mixerman]

Ive been doing HTML since the early 90's. In the beginning, the source code isn't really a code. Its an open arcitecture programming language much like Linux. Ive done corporate web pages as well as cheeso ugly fests over the last 10 years, it all depends on what the site is for. There are restrictions to taking specific types of programs for your own use, mainly java type stuff. That could hae changed though.
While at one times I was very proficient in HTML, I have tried to make things more simple. My recent homepage unfortunately locks me into prefabbed Trellix templates which suck bad. In November Ill have a new one hosted in a nice place with downloadable and emailable Terms of Agreements as well as internet invoicing and maybe even free powerpoint tracking sheets. HTML is a freeform art, to be borrowed from, expanded upon and shared internationally. You can tradmark images and names, but not any particular ordering of any alphabet.

SoMm

[sae]

There is a difference between looking at the code to see how a certain effect was achieved, such as links changing colors on mouseovers, etc.

But that is totally DIFFERENT than copying the whole sites layout (very bad), or even images (horrible).

Can you copy a layout, or can that be copyrighted?