fixing a neck

[Dethska]

Hey, can any smart people out there tell me how to add some relief to the neck of this bolt-on electric I have.

The situation is thus, the neck is flat. Perfectly flat all the way up. Not good, I'm getting major "fret-outs" and can't get clean open tones. I've loosened the truss rod all the way until the nut came off, and it didn't budge. I've tried tightening the strings to add some tension and nada.

I don't know what else to do. The guitar is fairly cheap, so I don't want to take it to a "pro" unless I have to. I just need some advice.

Thanks in advance.

[Bass Freak]

did you try the bolts on the bolt on neck?




just an idea, remember, i need help changing strings





freak

[Mr. Bert]

Dethska,
Actually, a 'true' (or flat) neck is a very good thing. On most guitars, I only use a slight amount of 'relief' (neck slightly high in the middle) and this is offset by the string tension so that the neck is perfectly flat when tuned to pitch.

There are several things you need to check on your guitar before messing with all the adjustments. It is possible to get so far from being 'right' that it could take a trip to a professional luthier to get the guitar back on track.

First of all, you should tune the guitar to pitch (A440) and check to see that the neck is flat. If you have backed the truss rod off all the way, you will need to snug it up just until you can feel it start to tighten.

Next, you will need to check string heigth along the neck, at the bridge and at the nut. Begin by measuring the distance from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the strings while all of the strings are at full tension.

I like to set my guitars at 2/32" of an inch, but in general, 3/32" will provide good action (feel or fretability) and minimize the chance for buzzing.

Now that you have these basic measurements set, recheck the tuning and push each string down one at a time at the 3rd fret. When each string is 'fretted' at the 3rd fret, there should be a slight amount of clearance between each string and the top of the first fret.

This measurement can only be changed by filing the grooves deeper in the nut, or by replacing and/or 'shimming' the grooves in the nut. However, on most guitars, this should be OK once you have the bridge properly set.

As with any adjustment, intonation should always be checked following the procedure. This requires a 'strobe' tuner. The liitle pocket tuners are not sensitive enough to use for setting intonation.

However, you can get a good idea of where your intonation is by plucking an open string and then quickly fretting it at the 12th fret. The notes should sound identical.

If they don't, I would recommend having this professionally setup by a qualified technician. I have a guitar technician who sets intonation for me and charges $15.00, a very reasonable fee.

I hope this information is helpful. E-Mail me if you need more help. best of luck...Bert

[Major Tom]

hmmmm. I was setting up a cheap guitar for a friend a while back, the truss rod had very little adjustment range, I had to loosen it almost to the point of the nut coming off to adjust for 10 - 46 gauge strings. It just didn't feel like it had any tension on it. I wonder if the rod is stuck in there, like as if it were glued to the wood. Most bolt on neck are maple, which is a very strong wood, could maybe or almost work without a truss rod. In fact, I believe the first solid bodies from Leo Fender (Broadcaster or Esquire) did not have truss rods. If its a maple neck, here's what I would do:
Unbolt the neck, lay it frets down on a sturdy workbench. Use some towels or blankets to give enough cushion to where you won't bust the plastic nut. Loosen the truss rod. Put something like about 1/4" thick in the middle under the fretboard, like an extra few thicknesses of towel and then push down on the head and the heel at the same time, putting your weight into it. See if you can get the rod to break loose from the wood, if that's the problem. You won't break it.

WAIT, Before you do the above, with it off the guitar, or the strings off, put a straight edge on it. It could have "back bow" - be warped in such a way that it needs the string tension to brings it up to being flat; the rod wouldn't be a factor since it won't compensate for back bow, (unless it is one of the truss rod systems that will...) if it does have that issue, the straight edge would "teeter" on it, you couldn't make it touch both ends. If that's the case, you would maybe have to take it to a professional, or get a replacement.

One thing you could try if the repair estimate is too high, before you throw it away that could possibly ruin it -
With the rod loosened - jig it up similiar to my above scenario, maybe use something about 1/8" thick, but this time use wood clamps (with blocks to protect the surfaces from the clamp) and clamp that sucker down to the work bench on each end, forcing it into an exaggerated "front bow". Not too extreme, and make sure its flat, so you don't twist it. Wait a day or 3... or you could try heating it up with a heat gun to speed the process. After being unclamped, if this were at all successful, it should spring back from the clamped position into a lesser degree of "benditude" (I just made that word up) into a little front bow, or at least flat with no tension. that the truss rod will compensate for. I have used this method with varying degrees of success with wood pieces over the years...

[Dethska]

Well, to be perfectly honest. I might have pushed this thing a little too far in the wrong direction. It started with a little back bow. So in my infinite wisdom, I tightened the truss rod a little. I adjusted it in little bits over a few hours (1/16th to 1/8th turns) and seeing no effect left it for a day to see what would happen. (the smart people already see my mistake ) Well, I came back to it, and it had a pronounced back bow (not horrible but definetely curving the wrong way). *slaps forehead* I should be loosening the truss rod!!! I quickly backed the truss rod down, and the neck has returned to pretty much flat.

I'll try some of the things you guys recommend (going from easy to extreme.) I really hope I can get the neck working because it's the reason I bought the guitar (good thing I didn't pay too much.)

Oh and by the way, the "techs" around here suck. They charge $25 - 40 dollars to set intonation and it turns out as good as I can do with my pocket tuner. I've done it before, it came out pretty good. It's not perfect, but it works good enough for me. Besides, I play punk, if the guitar is out of tune, it makes it sound better.

[King Elvis]

You can set the intonation fairly good with a chromatic tuner. Not as good as strobing it but what the hey...

[Scottgman]

You also might want to check the neck joint. Some bolt-on necks have a screw that allows you to adjust the neck even more. I don't know what it's called.

You may have to take the plate off at the neck joint (just remove the bolts holding the neck) to get at the screw.

[Dethska]

King Elvis- Yeah, I use the chromatic tuner on my RP6 (only thing that POS is good for)

Scottgman- I'll look. but I don't think that will help. From the 12th fret up to the bridge it looks good (flat). At that point it is perfectly straight to the nut, and I'd like to get a little forward (toward strings) relief in there. I'm having trouble with the G fretting out at the 1st - 3rd frets.

Am I stupid here? I've got a book (Guitar Player repair guide or something like that) that says a little forward bow is ideal. That's what's on my other guitars and they work fine. Should I keep the neck flat like it is, and just raise the nut?

[Dethska]

So I tried adjusting the nut last night, it actually had little screws designed to raise and lower it. And it made only made things worse. It didn't help the fretting out problem at all.

So anybody else have any suggestions? I'd really appreciate it. I grow more frustrated with the thing by the day.

[philboyd studge]

The neck should have a little relief in it.

Capo at the first fret and hold the bass E string down at the 13th. Take a feeler guage set at .010 and it should fit between the string and the 8th fret, snugly, not loose and not pushing the string up.

After the truss rod is set, then work on intonation and string height.

[Dethska]

Yeah, that's what I thought. Unfortunately I can't get any relief into the neck. I've got the truss rod completely "open" and the neck isn't bending at all. I don't know how to bend it opposite the truss rod.

[philboyd studge]

Originally posted by Dethska
Yeah, that's what I thought. Unfortunately I can't get any relief into the neck. I've got the truss rod completely "open" and the neck isn't bending at all. I don't know how to bend it opposite the truss rod.

Short of a heat lamp treatment there's not much you can do.

[Doug H]

The guitar may have some "Toungue rise" making the high notes (and others) fret out. If it's just a cheap guitar, filing down the last fret or two (highest notes on the guitar) a teensy bit may give the strings a bit of clearence. Don't do this anywhere near the middle of the neck or you could completely destroy the guitars playability unless you know what you're doing and have all the tools.

There should be some web pages easy to find on the topic and you can get a file at the hardware store for $10 as long as you aren't planning on doing any fancy finishing or crowning.

I set my intonation by ear. I've been meaning to get a tuner but haven't gotten around to it yet. It's pretty easy to get it close and then just make some minor adjustments after playing it for a few days. I couldn't be bothered to take it to the shop and pay $35 every time it starts to get out of whack.

How are you measuring the releif?

[Dethska]

It's the low notes that are fretting out. I'm measuring relief by eye. If I press down at the first fret and thirteenth fret, the string is resting on a bunch of frets in the middle.

What's the heat lamp treatment? Is that what Major Tom was describing. I'm starting to get to that point, but I'd like to see if anybody else has any ideas.

[Lt. Bob]

A flat neck that frets out has some fret problems probably.
But....take the neck off.......find a perfectly flat surface such as a good workbench.....put a cardboard spacer under the middle of the neck (fretboard down) and clamp the neck top the flat surface at each end and let it sit for a week or two. That should give you a slight bow.

[Doug H]

Could be some really bad fret ware that's aggrivating the problem, but it sounds like the neck's pretty fibar'ed. Maybe the heat lampthing is an idea, or take it to a shop and see what they have to say.

[Dethska]

Well, as long as I push down on the center of the neck, all problems disappear. So the key is to get the neck to stay in that shape. I've tried heating up the neck with a 1000 W hair dryer and then setting a brick on a towel in the center of the neck. It bends into the right shape, it just isn't staying. Maybe I need to let it set longer?

[Mr. Bert]

Dethska,

Is this a bolt-on neck? If so, maybe a replacement would solve the problem???...Bert

[Dethska]

Thanks, Mr. Bert, it probably would, but it's hard to justify a new neck on this guitar. I bought it cause it was cheap. I figured if I could fix the neck then I'd have a decent back up guitar. If I can fix it myself, excellent. And if I mess it up completely, I'll just use the guitar for parts and chalk it up to a learning experience.

[Mr. Bert]

What gauge strings are you using? Maybe if you went with something like 10-46, you could add a little relief that way?

It's hard to explain to someone else what you see with your own eyes, but I think I understand what you have and how you plan on using the guitar.

If you don't have a problem with modifying the instrument, why not just level the frets with a sanding block? Use a straightedge and check them while cutting across the frets with 400 grit sandpaper?

I had a cheap Harmony guitar once and it was all I could afford. Several of the notes would not change as you went up the neck, because there were some 'crazy' frets.

I sanded a few of them down with a popsicle stick that was wrapped with sandpaper. It worked great and you get to eat the popsicles first which is an added bonus.

If you can tell me what kind of guitar it is, I can ask the guy that does all of my custom work what he recommends.

Best of luck...Bert

[Dethska]

it's a yamaha rgz 612. pretty standard 80's strat-ish style guitar. I don't know if sanding the frets will improve much. I'll consider it if I can't get the neck to move.

[philboyd studge]

Originally posted by Dethska
Well, as long as I push down on the center of the neck, all problems disappear. So the key is to get the neck to stay in that shape. I've tried heating up the neck with a 1000 hair dryer and then setting a brick on a towel in the center of the neck. It bends into the right shape, it just isn't staying. Maybe I need to let it set longer?

Well you sound pretty fearless so do what Lt. Bob says except add a heat lamp. Place it about 14" from the center of the neck and turn in on for 30 to 40 minutes, then let the neck set for 24 hours.

That should give you something to work with.

[Dethska]

I would do that except I don't have a heat lamp, clamps, or a work bench. So I'm trying to do the same thing but with what I've got.

It's not really a matter of fearless or not. It's unplayable as is, so I don't really have a lot to lose. If I screw up, I'm no worse than when I started.