Drum machines: How close can you get?

[copperandstars]

...to the sound of a real drumset.

I am searching for a solution to my problem...in about 2 weeks I will be moving into a dorm room. I've always done solo projects in which I play all the instruments and whatnot, one of them being the drums. I would like to continue writing music and recording, so I have been thinking about the possibility of using a drum machine. Right now I have Fruity Loops, I havn't really gotten into it yet though. I don't do electronic music for the most part, so I am after the accoustic drum set sound. How close do you think you can get to the sound of a real set with this program? I have a friend that told me if I download some good samples of the drums and learn to use fruity loops correctly it can be hard to tell it's not the real thing.

I would like your input...and also if you have any hints about fruity loops (no manual included!) please share them.

Thanks!

Ryan

[tmix]

I think if you are tasteful in your programming and stick to simple drum parts with little or no fills it would be hard to tell the difference.
What SCREAMS drum machine is overly busy parts with machine gun snare and tom rolls. Also watch out having too busy a hi-hat part with a dead-on repetive pattern. Change it up a little like you would when you play.

I have not used Fruity Loops before but have threatened to at times. Let me know what your experiance is like when you do!

Tom

[Fusion2]

Originally posted by copperandstars
...to the sound of a real drumset.
I would like your input...and also if you have any hints about fruity loops (no manual included!) please share them.
Ryan

the manual is free at there web page, and look through this forum section for references to it (there here) or do a search here or on google/yahoo/etc etc...

fruitloops is the mac daddy of them all imho...

[mutok]

i'm moving back to my college dorm room and faced the same problem, since i also do solo projects... i've been using jeskola buzz, since the price is right (free), it's very extendable, it's low on resources, and i'm familiar with it; however, it's got a steep learning curve and doesn't come with samples. no samples?

this summer i took my drums down to my room and recorded each drum individually (and several times each). i only have one mic, so they aren't balanced at all and the kick drum sounds a little weak (and my hihat sucks). having the kit set up together allows everything to resonate like if a real drummer is playing them. the biggest problems with samples i've encountered is that they sound isolated (which they probably were). i load several samples of each drum and cymbal into the sample bank and randomly swap them for patterns, giving a human quality (but still well-timed).

once everything is equalized, compressed, and reverberated it sounds pretty good (i'm going to record new samples soon to get a better sound). if you have anyway questions about that, fire away. and... got any of that one-man-music to share with everyone?

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally posted by copperandstars
...to the sound of a real drumset?

It depends who it is that's listening!

[copperandstars]

Yes, very true...

So mutok, you use different snares and cymbals in the same song?

And also, any suggestions of where to get some good samples (are there any free ones!?).

Thanks.

[mutok]

Originally posted by copperandstars
Yes, very true...

So mutok, you use different snares and cymbals in the same song?

And also, any suggestions of where to get some good samples (are there any free ones!?).

Thanks.

Sortof. It's still the same drums and the same cymbal, but different hits of each. I'm planning on re-recording them in the next few days. Send me an instant message (aim: mutok) and i'll be happy to share them with you. Do a google search for free audio samples and I'm sure you'll come up with some good ones. This site was posted on the board not too long ago and I'm pleased with the selection. Samplecity had some good ones last time I checked. Big List. Never been here, but it looks really good. Instead of finishing this post, I'm going to go investigate that last site...

[Rimshot]

To a real acoustic drumset??!!

Inflatable sex doll: How close is it to the real thing?

To quote Jake Johanssen:
"It really isn't plan "A"!"

I think that's a good analogy.


Think "Sound Off"s (you know, those rubber muffle discs that fit to the heads of your drums and go on your cymbals) for practicing when your playing will be a problem disturbing others. Leave the drum machines to the non drummers that just wannabe, or the DJ's.

[tubedude]

You would be hard pressed to tell drumkit from hell from the real thing if its done right. I;ve had several people ask who my drummer is.
I think Sluice uses DFH too, go take a listen to his stuff... its very realistic sounding.
When used right, no one would know the difference. It has about 10 hits for every drum and cymbal, from light to hard, and each one has a left and right hand hit, and each of those has a matching ambient/room sample that you can blend in to taste. Very versatile.
Used with Dr-008 or Battery its unstoppable.

[tubedude]

Here is a sample of DFH without the ambient mics mixed (which really adds to the tone) I can get a little more picky about it, but this does the trick for now.

www.nowhereradio.com/sternum/singles


go to Song 7

[mutok]

The specs on DFH are really impressive... whoo.

[jake-owa]

It's always the cymbals that sound the worst on machine drums.

[tubedude]

Not if you call Dr-008 in combo with Sonar and Drumkit From Hell a drum machine, which is how I do it.
Some pretty good sounding shit.
I also have Purrrfect Cymbals, and those sound about as good as it can possibly get under any circumstances, and work flawlessly along side DFH... although DFH sounds good enough already that I hardly ever break out the Purrrfect cymbals stuff.

[Laynestaley]

It's very hard if not impossible to tell Fruity Loops from the real thing.. if you do it right. Change the volume of the snare, hihat etc. This does take a lot of time and effort but eventually you will get it right.
I use the Tom Hicks samples. They are really good. You can download them here:
http://samples.artistcollaboration.com/

[skyy38]

Originally posted by Rimshot
To a real acoustic drumset??!!

Inflatable sex doll: How close is it to the real thing?

To quote Jake Johanssen:
"It really isn't plan "A"!"

I think that's a good analogy.


Think "Sound Off"s (you know, those rubber muffle discs that fit to the heads of your drums and go on your cymbals) for practicing when your playing will be a problem disturbing others.


Leave the drum machines to the non drummers that just wannabe, or the DJ's.

Uh,rimshot,have you ever given serious thought to the possibility
that us REAL drummers like to use drum machines as well?
Just a thought....

[skyy38]

Copper-Check this out-

http://www.samash.com/catalog/showit...onetodaythanks

Your *best* solution,I promise you that!

[FattMusiek]

I have some Boss Drum machine...still don't know how to use it. I still mic up my set.

[mutok]

Originally posted by Laynestaley
It's very hard if not impossible to tell Fruity Loops from the real thing.. if you do it right. Change the volume of the snare, hihat etc. This does take a lot of time and effort but eventually you will get it right.
I use the Tom Hicks samples. They are really good. You can download them here:
http://samples.artistcollaboration.com/

I'm impressed with that collection. Thanks for the valuable addition to my samples bank!

[Chris Tondreau]

IMHO, it's not just the software you have to worry about - good samples are crucial in getting a realistic drum sound. Think about it - a great recording of a great kick, snare, whatever is a great recording - whether it's a quarter of a second or if it's three and a half minutes.

The giveaways are generally in the performance - those things that a human would do that programming typically leaves out.

A human does not hit the same drum the same way every time - there will be variations due to what the music calls for or due simply to the fact that human-ness is not perfectly consistent. If your software has velocity layers (a slightly different sample triggered dependent upon how hard the drum is hit - a snare sounds wildly different if you tap it compared to if you give it a good whack), you can play with those to achieve these variants.

A human does not have perfect time. If you have groove quantize or some feature like that which will give you some slight variation on perfect time, use it.

Don't play the same fill the same way each and every time. Vary up the rhythmic pattern even. Remember - think human.

Here's another trick... get a drum pad like the Roland ones (can't remember what they are), and actually play a live performance yourself on the triggers. It takes some getting used to, but will give a totally human performance. Combine that with great samples and I'll challenge ANYONE pretty much to tell the difference.

Chris

[bongolation]

Originally posted by Chris Tondreau
get a drum pad like the Roland ones (can't remember what they are), and actually play a live performance yourself on the triggers. It takes some getting used to, but will give a totally human performance. Combine that with great samples and I'll challenge ANYONE pretty much to tell the difference.

You can do the same thing with velocity-sensitive keyboard MIDI controllers. There are any number of ways to do a true "human" interface.

[Chris Tondreau]

Good point, but I suggested the drum triggers (Roland SPD-8, if I recall...) as the poster is used to playing his own drum parts. There are subtleties that you will get by hitting pads with sticks that you likely won't by striking keys with fingers. If someone was NOT a drummer, I would totally recommend the velocity sensitive keyboard controllers.

Chris

[tubedude]

Originally posted by skyy38
Copper-Check this out-

http://www.samash.com/catalog/showit...onetodaythanks

Your *best* solution,I promise you that!

No offense, but in my opinion that is the WORST possible bet.

[Mustafa Salaam]

Originally posted by tubedude
No offense, but in my opinion that is the WORST possible bet.

Agreed!

Unit has too many limitations to serve as an effective drum machine.

[Fela]

Humans do have perfect time. It's perfect because it is human. I would pick Omar Hakims timing over logic audios quantization each and every day of the week. A good drummer has time that relates to the piece, not a fucking crystal oscillator. If you were to put a click track in Omar Hakims ear and have him nail a part and then quantitize it you would ruin the part.

Quantization is for Moby wannabes who need help to get a rundimentary groove to begin with. Playing drums at a high level is about making a _band_ groove and quantization does not do that.

*rant mode off*

I generally play my parts to a click and play them tell they groove with the music in mind. I play them into a Yamaha electronic drumset where they go into logic as midi files. Then edit the parts and often substitute samples. This can be problematic with more resonant percussion parts as the peak amplitude of the sample may be a little later or earlier than the sample you were hearing at the time.

Basically you just get the part to groove by futzing with it. If you are a drummer you should know whether it's grooving or not.

[Chris Tondreau]

I guess it's a matter of semantics here. I agree that "human" time is more musical, and therefore "better" in the hands of a competent musician. When I said that humans do not have perfect time, I was, of course, referring to the mathematical/theoretical definition of perfect time.

Chris