carving the turkey

terrible_buddhi · #1 08-13-2003

I just recording the drums...they have not been eq'd yet, and I want to add the bass in...how should I eq this track to make room for it?

http://www.foxytravel.com/YE/mixdowns/far_away%20sb.mp3

Blue Bear Sound · #2 08-13-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by terrible_buddhi
I just recording the drums...they have not been eq'd yet

Well... why not? You'll get much better results if you record it the way you want it to sound, instead of throwing up mics and worrying about how to "fix" the sound later....

In this clip, the drums are extremely muffled and wooly-sounding, and lack any definition or impact.

The snare in particular sounds like someone hitting a cardboard box with a stick.

The cymbals are far too forward and are imbalanced relative to the rest of the kit... as well, there's evidence of comb filtering due to poor mic placement (caused by phase problem with mics in too-close proximity to each other).... this causes the washy kind of sound....

I'm afraid before you worry about adding a bass in there - you'll need to retrack the drums to make them acceptable! And get the bass player to play along with you when you set up the mics - that way you can check what the two instruments will sound like together on the monitors. First step though, is getting the drums recorded properly!

MarkoPolo · #3 08-13-2003

it also sounds like you eather did'nt use a kick mic or bad mic
placement. it sounds hollow with no punch ??

TexRoadkill · #4 08-13-2003

And that belt makes your ass look fat

terrible_buddhi · #5 08-13-2003

yes...this belt DOES make me look fat

ok...lets start with the kick...I am not thrilled with the sound either...We took off the outer head...put a pillow in it, and the mic is on the outside of the drum pointed at about the beater.

FattMusiek · #6 08-13-2003

First, like Blue Bear said, get the sound closest to what you want first THEN EQ. Second, I would make room for the drums, not the bass.

FattMusiek · #7 08-13-2003

Oh, you never replied to my previous post where I gave you a link to a recent drum track I did.

http://members.cox.net/fattmusiek/drums.mp3

Hopefully Blue Bear will come back and give me some advice.

Blue Bear Sound · #8 08-13-2003

Not too bad FattMusiek.... a little wooly and dark-sounding and maybe a little too much "room" for my taste, but it may be entirely appropriate for your context!

TexRoadkill · #9 08-14-2003

Buddhi - How are you miking the kit? What mics?

Fatt- Not bad. The cymbals and toms are pretty decent but the kick is a little weak and the snare has too much ping. You might try loosening the snare springs for a little more snap. Kicks are tough. My advice for a good kick these days is get a Sennheiser E602.

Teacher · #10 08-14-2003

or you can do it the EASY and cheaper way which would be to sample replace...

Quote:

Originally posted by TexRoadkill
Buddhi - How are you miking the kit? What mics?

Fatt- Not bad. The cymbals and toms are pretty decent but the kick is a little weak and the snare has too much ping. You might try loosening the snare springs for a little more snap. Kicks are tough. My advice for a good kick these days is get a Sennheiser E602.

terrible_buddhi · #11 08-14-2003

can't bring myself to do it...I want to get the sound right.

When you guys are tracking do you ever use low pass or high pass?

terrible_buddhi · #12 08-14-2003

ok, here are some pics of how I have the set miced...any obvious flaws?

http://www.foxytravel.com/YE/photo/MVC-180L.JPG

http://www.foxytravel.com/YE/photo/MVC-181L.JPG

http://www.foxytravel.com/YE/photo/MVC-182L.JPG

http://www.foxytravel.com/YE/photo/MVC-183L.JPG

TexRoadkill · #13 08-14-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by terrible_buddhi
ok, here are some pics of how I have the set miced...any obvious flaws?

http://www.foxytravel.com/YE/photo/MVC-180L.JPG

http://www.foxytravel.com/YE/photo/MVC-181L.JPG

http://www.foxytravel.com/YE/photo/MVC-182L.JPG

http://www.foxytravel.com/YE/photo/MVC-183L.JPG

Generally a spaced pair of OH's can be a phase nightmare. You might try searching the forum for RECORDERMAN DRUM and you can read a cool technique. I do a variation of it where I put one OH directly above the snare just out of the way of the drummer. I tape a string to the center of the snare and to the kick where the beater hits. Pull the string so it makes a triangle with the first OH mic. Then move the string to the right and when it is tight that is where the second OH will go. It will only be about a foot apart but you get great mono compatability and a good picture of the whole kit.

Put the kick mic on a boom and place it closer to the inside skin. Point it at the beater. That will give you a much tighter and clickier attack. Remember to INVERT the phase on the kick mic. This is crucial to a good sound.

Try angling the snare mic flatter and pointed more at the center of the snare. You can also try micing the bottom or side of the snare for more crack. If you mic the bottom be sure to invert the phase on that mic also.

For a big snare sound you can add some reverb to just the snare mic and leave the OH's dry. A large room reverb with a fast predelay and short decay can work well. There are also some cool compression tricks that are vital to a big drum sound. You can compress the hell out of the OH's for a very roomy Bonham type sound. You can also run the kick and snare through a compressor set w/fast attack and release so it really pumps and mix it back in with the dry tracks. That will give you a big and punchy drum sound.

Good luck.

slabrock · #14 08-14-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Teacher
or you can do it the EASY and cheaper way which would be to sample replace...

Sennheiser e602 is not that expensive, is it? Less than $200 in Europe, and i must say i love mine, which i bought the week they came out. It's way cleaner and more articulate than a D112, not as soft and unfocused as B52, it feels like it has all the good qualities of Sennheiser's excellent all-around-mic MD421 plus extra in the bass end.

In my mic cabin it comes second only to my 50's edition AKG D12, when a bd has to be mic'd, which may imply that it's quite a classic

- a recommended buy, for sure. Good bass drum mics don't come much cheaper.

(Ok, i got the much appreciated chance to boast 'bout my mics. Thanks for you patience.)

Sample replacing is for SFX. You don't learn anything using a drumagog or such device. Recording drums is the most fun part of it all, why lose all those chances to experiment?

Ahh, building a cradle for another bass drum for resonances; driving the toms out of a PA set at 180dB and mic'ing the room...

That's fun!

Slabrock

terrible_buddhi · #15 08-14-2003

I am not sure how to reverse the phase on the kick, I have a Mackie 1604 VLZ. Also, how high above the snare do you put the OH?

So you think that is why the kick sounds like crap? Its out of phase?

slabrock · #16 08-14-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by terrible_buddhi
I am not sure how to reverse the phase on the kick, I have a Mackie 1604 VLZ. Also, how high above the snare do you put the OH?

So you think that is why the kick sounds like crap? Its out of phase?

Reversing phase: if your console doesn't have a "phase invert" -switch, you can do a phase inversion adapter out of a short XLR cable. You just cross the hot and cold leads, and leave ground as it was.

'The Famous John Bonham method' of placing the OH is to put two drumsticks vertical over the center of snare. Two drumstick lengths is about right.

Kick being in or out of phase is not the reason here, athough you can gain some, by testing it. Take the pillow out, tune the drum properly, dampen it only lightly and place the mic inside BD, about halfway in (or slightly closer to the beater side), and on a proper boom stand, not lying on or touching anything.

IMHO you can do better with a single OH than with a spaced pair (sometimes even better than with an X/Y-pair), unless you know just what you're doing. Rock drums are practically mono these days, anyway.

And while you're at it, try placing the snare mic a little further from the head, and slightly towards the centre of the drum.

I was happy to see, that you didn't have too many damping tapes on heads. That's always good to see, good!

Happy recordings,

Slabrock

terrible_buddhi · #17 08-14-2003

hoping someone sees this quickly...I did the recorderman method...its working much better...BUT the mics are not equidistent from the kick, but they are from the snare...should I move the kick drum itself?

Also, I have the first mic aimed at the center of the snare (the mic upside down) I have the second mic pointed there as well (about a 45 degree angle) is that right for a B1?

TexRoadkill · #18 08-14-2003

That sounds about right. I would try to keep the mic equidistant from the kick also. Use a string or cable and it will tell you exactly where to put the mic.

terrible_buddhi · #19 08-14-2003

ya, I did the cable thing...got close, but I would have to move the kick drum itself to get it equidistant to the kick & snare...with the double bass drum pedal he uses its near impossible...but it is close, and I think when I post the sound tomorrow...it sounds worlds better!

terrible_buddhi · #20 08-15-2003

here we go...no eq, pannned the left and right @ 10 & -10, no compression, no reverb.

I used the recorderman technique...it does seem to work much better...tell me what you think.

http://www.foxytravel.com/YE/mixdowns/far_away%20sb.mp3

zekthedeadcow · #21 08-15-2003

I haven't listened to this yet but I don't like micing on that side of the kick drum...expecially if it's not likely for it to be properly tuned.

Personally I would take the pillow out... put the head back on and ...being a really frick'n small kit (godda love 2pieces

) ... put a bass mic like a D112 or a Beta52 or whatever on the end of a boom mic stand and place it right above the kick mallets...with double bass, right inbetween the two mallets. that way the snare is behind the mic and it will get a hell of a lot crisper attack.

http://www.foxytravel.com/YE/photo/MVC-181L.JPG

With that setup the kick mic is over two feet from the source of the sound....and the pillow isn't going to allow the shell to resonate evenly...so you get a weak bass harmonic thing going among other things...pillows are evil...just remember that

It's hard to tell but it sorta looks like you have a wrinkle in the kick beater head...Remo's are fine but I converted to Aquarian heads ...and it's fairly apparent that the pedal mallets arn't hitting in the center of the drum from the apparent placement of the pad. http://www.foxytravel.com/YE/photo/MVC-183L.JPG

I personally don't like those muffle rings either...but I also don't like gating... yeah snares are supposed to be crisp but it's also supposed to have a slightly extended decay too... but it depends a lot on style

...and the room is square...and it looks like theres actually too much deadening material...

Bear in mind I'm saying this as an experienced drummer and not as an experienced engineer

terrible_buddhi · #22 08-15-2003

all the mics have been moved from that previous pic...including the kick mic.

The room is all concrete, except for some bass trap style wood I put on the ceiling. I also put up some other stuff to keep it from being so rectangular.

The way I was micing before was a total nightmare, I think this will work a lot better.

TexRoadkill · #23 08-15-2003

I'll try to remember to give it a listen when I get home.

TexRoadkill · #24 08-15-2003

That's sounding better. The kick is much more present. That snare is still a bit dull sounding. The drummer needs to really hit it instead of those wimpy taps. A new head might help. With a little compression to give it a more full sound I think you're on the way.

terrible_buddhi · #25 08-16-2003

ya, he does hit it hard...that is why he needs a new head...dented this one already

I also have that mic padded so I have some decent headroom.

Any other tips on mixing it?

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)