Muddy mixes

[cominginsecond]

I’m working on mixing my record, and one problem I’m running into on a few tracks is muddy bass frequencies clouding up my mix. I’ll cut some 100 hz out of the bass, kick drum, and guitars, but then it sounds totally top-heavy. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get rid of the mud but keep the low end?

[TexRoadkill]

That is the hardest part of working with home rec type gear. I used to cut the hell out of all my low mids until I got the Radar. It seems like good pres and convertors can really help clear up the tracks.

If getting a better signal path is out of the question then your probably on the right track. It is tough to get rid of the mud and not have a tinny sounding mix. Just use slight touches of EQ and listen to the mixes on a lot of systems and eventually you will know when it sounds right.

One that thing helped my electric guitars is to stop using a 57 against the grill. I know that is standard procedure but I always found the guitars to be too dull and muddy. Lately I've been using a C1 a few feet away and they guits cut through nicely.

[cominginsecond]

Originally posted by TexRoadkill
If getting a better signal path is out of the question then your probably on the right track. It is tough to get rid of the mud and not have a tinny sounding mix. Just use slight touches of EQ and listen to the mixes on a lot of systems and eventually you will know when it sounds right.

Thanks. I'm glad it's not just me. And, yes, for the time being, a signal path upgrade is out of the question.

[cominginsecond]

Tex,

I'm sending my mixes to be mastered by a pro (Tardon Feathered, who moderated the mastering forum at the latest TapeOpCon). Do you think I stand a good chance of an improvement with my mud problem post-mastering? Have you ever gotten your stuff professionally mastered?

[TexRoadkill]

It really just depends on how bad it is. A good mastering house would at least have better tools for fixing it.

My answer to muddy/tinny mixes was to spend $10K on new gear, lol. I still would like a little more clarity and air so now it looks like I need better pre's and mics.

[masteringhouse]

Originally posted by cominginsecond
Tex,

I'm sending my mixes to be mastered by a pro (Tardon Feathered, who moderated the mastering forum at the latest TapeOpCon). Do you think I stand a good chance of an improvement with my mud problem post-mastering? Have you ever gotten your stuff professionally mastered?

Mastering will help, but it's not a "cure all" for a bad mix anymore than "fixing it in the mix" is a cure for a bad recording of individual tracks. Mastering cannot re-EQ individual tracks so it's best to nip the problem in the bud. Rather than dipping 100, have you tried other frequencies? The area around 200-300 is notorious for creating mud.

Try cutting these freqs on the kick and potentially creating a "complimentary eq" on the bass gtr by raising these. Instead of pumping up 100 to make the bass gtr stand out, try other mid range frequencies.

The proximity effect by miking a gtr too close too the grill can also cause problems when chugging away at the low-end of the fretboard. But these will probably be more sporadic than something that is continually muddy.

Without hearing a sample, it's difficult to tell where the source of the problem is. This problem however is very typical.

[cominginsecond]

Thanks for the advice. I'll try 200-300 and see if this cuts the mud out.

[jake-owa]

I would consider rerecording the bass....

maybe with a 421.

[cominginsecond]

Originally posted by jake-owa
I would consider rerecording the bass....

maybe with a 421.

I don't have an amp, and I don't have a 421 . In any case, cutting from 200-300 hz seems to helping.

Thanks though.

[LooneyTunez]

"masteringhouse" made some very good suggestions, and I'd like to expand on that idea a little.

The use of highpass filtering is your best friend to keep bass buildup in check...but don't HP at the same frequency on every track. Some VERY general HP settings might typically be...

Kick: 30-80hz
Snare: 80-200hz
Toms: 70-100hz
Overheads: 40-200hz
Bass: 30-70hz
Guitars: 80-120hz
Keyboards/Synths: 30-150hz
Vocals: 70-200hz
Horns: 100-200hz
Full Mix: 20-40hz

These are some very broad ranges, and actual settings would depend on the material, but as a general rule I use a HP filter on almost every track. Once I've done that, then I can start to carve out problem areas (Like the typical 200-300hz region).

Play around with it, and I think you'll be happy with the results.

[mixsit]

I think Looney's advice is in the right direction. (It sounded like you were doing all your filtering in the same place.)
Also consider that some of the instruments might just need some bell dips up wherever thier spacific mud (or peak) might hang out. Not everything below has to go.
You might not want to wait to try to fix this in mastering. He will have fewer options than you doing it in the mix phase.
Wayne

[69ShadesofRed]

cominginsecond,

What happens is that if you cut all the instruments at the same frequency you're actually creating a hole in the entire mix. Also, the muddy frequency is different for different instruments. Plus, 100Hz is usually not where the mud is. In fact the 100-120Hz range is very important for bass information when you play your tracks on small speakers as these usually can't handle the low stuff. That's why your tracks sound gutted. You're ridding them from an important frequency... However, you should also check that the bass and the kick aren't fighting in this frequency range, and try complementary EQ.

A good way to find the muddy, or overly objectionable frequencies, is:

1 solo the track
2 lower the monitor levels
3 set a very narrow Q on your parametric
4 crank the EQ gain all the way up (this is why you want to lower the monitors, so you don't blow them up and mess up your ears in the process)
5 sweep the frequency

You will find some nasty resonances between 200-400hz range. Once you've nailed where it resonates the worst, then cut at this frequency. That's usually where the mud is.

Hope this, combined with the HP filtering suggestions above by others helps.

[Raydio]

Hey guys, I use a lot of samples, most of which are sampled drums and riffs from commercial rap recordings. These songs have been mastered, do you still think I should use that sweep EQ method or any other EQ method on mastered samples? My kicks thump hard already so I dont compress them even though people say to. I dont want to mess up the quality or anything ya know?

[Middleman]

LooneyTunez is right on.

In a full mix I will roll also roll off above 100 on bass, kick and floor toms. Just to get them out out of the lo mids. So the only place they play in the mix is 100 on down. If I need any upper frequencies for definition I will narrow band the places I need. This is a gross starting point of course.

If its a simply arrangement say Acoustic Bass, guitar and voice without drums, I will let the things go a little to fill in the spaces but you have to let each instrument have its own sonic place. More importanly you have to decide what gets the mud space? Or, does anything get the mud space?

[coplinger]

I've read many times on this board that excessive use of eq can cause phase problems. Wouldn't the Looney Tunez method introduce phase issues in the lower frequencies?

[mixsit]

Originally posted by coplinger
I've read many times on this board that excessive use of eq can cause phase problems. Wouldn't the Looney Tunez method introduce phase issues in the lower frequencies?

I find it very interesting how easily we often can shift between our minimalist pristine modes and the kill it and bag it modes.

Wayne

[mixsit]

...or, to pose it as a question -where are all the mics with natural low roll-off so an eq insn't needed on every track?

[masteringhouse]

Originally posted by coplinger
I've read many times on this board that excessive use of eq can cause phase problems. Wouldn't the Looney Tunez method introduce phase issues in the lower frequencies?

Yes, but so does recording something with more than one mic along with a host of other things ...

It's a lesser of the 2 evils issue.

[mallcore pop]

. . .although with some of the crappier eq's/plugs out there, you wonder if either evil is the lesser.

[shackrock]

i had..well still have (most of the time) this same problem.

i think you sohuldnt cut the same place on all of your bass instruments, that just cuts the bass completely, so of course it would be top heavy right? try to make it more like a puzzle.....so cut the 80hz on the bass and guitars, and boost it a bit on the kick. then cut 120 on the kick and the guitar, and boost the bass there a bit. then cut 200 on the kick and bass, and bost the guitar there a bit.

those numbers are completely randomly picked (don't use those obviously)...but you know what i mean. ha.....just try cutting on 2 of the 3 things, and leaving room in that same freaquency space for the 3rd thing. etc. etc.

also, I don't eq very much. go until where you can hear the difference well, and cut back a lot. at the MOST, i've boosted/cut about 3db.... i try to stay around 1-2 for most of my things, otherwise they tend to sound wierder and wierder....ha.

[cominginsecond]

Thanks for the advice everyone. Yeah, I should have known better than to cut the same frequency on all the tracks. My mixes are sounding better since I started this thread.

[chessrock]

It's really impossible to know the right approach without knowing what it is you're dealing with. I can't say "cut this" or "boost that" without knowing what kinds of tracks these are; how many, what instruments, how were they mic'ed, what frequencies are they taking up, for the most part, which ones seem to contribute the most mud, etc. etc. etc.

All these posts are basically just taking randome stabs in the dark.

[vermades]

Hey, found that part on the HP filters pretty helpfull, someone mentioned that to me awhile ago, made my mixes much cleaner. The other guy though mentioned using low pass filters on kick and bass to have them the only parts that go under 100. After some experimenting mixing seems easier once you can keep the different instruments in the ranges you want.


I got a few questions here..


What tips would you give or filter setting for keeping instruments in the mid range without getting into the high and lows.

How much chorus is too much to use on bass, I always find i'd like to have more depth but I can't seem to find a happy medium.

[Middleman]

What tips would you give or filter setting for keeping instruments in the mid range without getting into the high and lows.

Roll off the lows and roll off the highs.

[vermades]

Originally posted by Middleman
Roll off the lows and roll off the highs.

I actually tried that, i thought maybe there was a different way btw when are the settings for low shelf and high shelf used? As that for this purpose is shelf to ...... to shelve it and put it away where it belongs? heh