I'm thinking of getting a Neve 1084, am I nuts?

[rcktdg]

For the last few weeks I have been trying out a few different pre's. Mostly they have been the models without eq. I was blown away by how great many of them sounded. I could really hear the difference in the dynamics and detail. I find it a bit hard to describe exactly what it was like but the differnece was quite lovely.

I was really feeling great about what was ahead of me and was starting to narrow down my choices to pairs of API 312's and Neve 1272's. Then I got hold of a single Neve 1084.

Everything is different now.

Yeah those little units really helped but the 1084 was a drastic improvement. I have never heard such tight, punchy low end and beautiful open top. During the last week I tracked a tune with it, re-amped a couple of things and just generally tried all kinds of stuff to explore the sound of the unit. It is really amazing.

The problem is that my entire preamp budget would have to go into this thing and while I think it's great, having only one preamp is a bit of a limitation. It has worked great for just about everything I have tried with it but one is only one.

One thing I did that is a departure from my standard method was printing eq on a few tracks. If I go with this single unit I'm not really sure how that will work out . I could easily end up with problem tracks because of the eq that was recorded. Not everything in the world can sound super fat and wonderful and still sit in a mix.

Given the choices I had arrived at would I be better off with 4 lesser pre's with no eq or one really great sounding pre with eq? This will not be the end of the line but it will be awhile before I am able to refill the preamp fund.

I would be very interested in your thoughts.

Cheers, RD

[Rev E]

What other preamps are you considering?

[muttley]

Get the Neve!! You won't regret it.



da MUTT

[Fletcher]

Just to throw a spanner into the machine......

In a couple of months time the Great River EQ-2NV will hit the street. It's going to be a 2 channel 4 band equalizer that is based on the Neve® 1081... except we played with it a bit.

The original 1081 employed a class A/B output amplifier... this unit doesn't. It's actually meant to be used on the insert point of the MP-2NV [which is where the equalizer is inserted in an original "fully class A module" like the 1073 or 1084]. By using the EQ-2NV on the insert point of the MP-2NV you will effectively have a modern version of the 1084 on steroid.

The EQ-2NV will have it's own line input but can also use the mic input of the MP-2NV in a line level application... which nets you access to the input impedance switch [which is the same switch you find on the back of the 1084]... and the "loading" switch actually seems to make quite a bit more of a tonal difference when used with the EQ-2NV in mix applications.

The only reason I bring this up is that it kinda gives you a way to have your cake and eat it too... I'm going to guess that the 1084 is going to run around $3,500... so by picking up an MP-2NV now [they run around $2,150] it will allow you to save up for the EQ-2NV [which is guestimated to be around the same price as the MP-2NV upon release (+/-3db)]... the net result being two channels of more flexible mic-pre/EQ [and there will be a sonic difference as well... of which I'm partial to the Great River but I'm way biased as the stuff has been designed to fit my sense of sonic aesthetic] for not a whole lot more coin than the single channel of 1084.

Best of luck with your decision making process.

[muttley]

Fletcher who will carry these items?????



da MUTT

[sweetnubs]

if you actually do this for a living i'd probably go with the neve. Looks nice on the gear list.

[rcktdg]

Fletcher, your suggestion sounds reeeaaally interesting but 2 months is quite a chunk of time when I look at where I'm at currently. I would like a chance to hear the great river mp-2nv and even called your shop a few weeks ago to inquire about trying one out. This was during the "no eq" phase of mic pre's. Since then I got my hands on this 1084 and I'm having a difficult time taking my hands off of it. I can get this unit slightly less than 3k.

I sure didn't think I would end up in this position. I couldn't imagine when I started this project that I would end up with something like this. It has changed the way I hear music to a certain degree. After hearing the bass response I think I can pick it out in other recordings.

I have an offer to try a Focusrite ISA something or another but I don't know what model. I think it's a single channel with eq and compression. I don't really know much about it.

I can tell I am losing my objectivity cuz I want it. I used it to record a vocalist that I have recorded many times before and she sounded like a freakin' rock star. She couldn't see me but I sat there with my jaw on the console after I dialed it in.

I gotta give this thing back and at least think about it for a few days or imediately get my hands on something else just to make sure.

Cheers, RD

[Dan Kennedy]

Don't shoot me Fletcher, but rctdg, if you can get it for under $3K, what are you asking us for?

A gear jones is terrible, ain't it?

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by rcktdg
I have an offer to try a Focusrite ISA something or another but I don't know what model. I think it's a single channel with eq and compression. I don't really know much about it.

Bro, a Focusrite anything can't lick the sweat off the balls of a 1084 [which IMNTLBFHO is my favorite Neve® module... ever]. If you can snag one for under <$3k... I'd say snag it. I'd also recommend that you have the filter caps changed along with the electrolytics on the B283 and B284 boards changed... but that operation shouldn't run more than like $125-$150.

The only reason I mentioned the GR stuff was because I think it's a viable alternative... and while it's a viable alternative if you can land on one of the originals it's probably not a bad idea... there is always time to add new stuff later but frankly, if you've found a good condition 1084 for a reasonable price... you might as well go for it as they don't come up all that often.

[rcktdg]

Two nights have gone by and I have been comparing previous recent work including early mic pre experiments against a mix with the 1084 and the choice is clear. If I will go on it has to be with a 1084.

I still have much learning ahead of me but some lessons just don't take very long. The 1084 is a bad ass pre.

Do a lot of rappers use these or 1073's on their drum machines. I'm not a rap guy (even though I claim that my private life is nothing but booty shakin' pool parties) but I was listening to some Dr. Dre and I swear the bass drum was all Neve. If not Neve, then what? I have always been impressed with good rap mixes and how much focus I hear in the drum tracks.

Beyond Neve, what are the other legends and why. What about Calrec? What's up with a Pultec?

Cheers, RD

P.S. "IMNTLBFHO", I got the "IM...FHO" but what about "NTLB"?

[Dan Kennedy]

"not the least bit"

[darrin_h2000]

They say the Peavey tube pre sounds like the Pultec.

[rcktdg]

Nuff said!

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by darrin_h2000
They say the Peavey tube pre sounds like the Pultec.

A Pultec what?

[darrin_h2000]

I was told it sounded like an old Pultec tube pre, personally Id put Mullard NOS tubes in it.

But they say alot of stuff, Fletch Im sure you know how that is.

[moeses]

from what i know...Dre runs everything through a neve board...

[Geoff_T]

Originally posted by rcktdg
Two nights have gone by and I have been comparing previous recent work including early mic pre experiments against a mix with the 1084 and the choice is clear. If I will go on it has to be with a 1084.

I still have much learning ahead of me but some lessons just don't take very long. The 1084 is a bad ass pre.

Do a lot of rappers use these or 1073's on their drum machines. I'm not a rap guy (even though I claim that my private life is nothing but booty shakin' pool parties) but I was listening to some Dr. Dre and I swear the bass drum was all Neve. If not Neve, then what? I have always been impressed with good rap mixes and how much focus I hear in the drum tracks.

Beyond Neve, what are the other legends and why. What about Calrec? What's up with a Pultec?

Cheers, RD

P.S. "IMNTLBFHO", I got the "IM...FHO" but what about "NTLB"?

Hi

I know that Snoop Dog (excuse any spelling errors... it's not my most knowledgable music genre!) uses a GTQ2 and said, the first time he heard the playback, "Man, that thing is a fly as f*ck!"

:-)

Geoff Tanner
www.auroraaudio.net

[tubedude]

Damn, now we even have Geoff posting here. Cool.

Maybe you can explain to us whats going on with that new preamp. I know its a "different" circuit than normal... explain the benefits and drawbacks....

The two preamps I've been dying to try back to back is yours and the Great River NV... I'll probably buy one or the other in the next 8 weeks or so, pending on wether I jump on a Lucid converter and clock 1st.

Welcome to the board.

[tubedude]

Question for Geoff...
Will the new 8 channel console be affordable for us homereccers or is it going to be a $10,000+ kind of deal?
Xformer preamps?
Give us some info, please...

[Geoff_T]

Originally posted by tubedude
Damn, now we even have Geoff posting here. Cool.

Maybe you can explain to us whats going on with that new preamp. I know its a "different" circuit than normal... explain the benefits and drawbacks....

The two preamps I've been dying to try back to back is yours and the Great River NV... I'll probably buy one or the other in the next 8 weeks or so, pending on wether I jump on a Lucid converter and clock 1st.

Welcome to the board.

Hi

Thanks for the welcome!

Yes, when I first heard Snoop's comment, I wasn't sure if it was good or bad... but the engineer that told me explained that up until then Snoop had not really noticed anything special about the playback (via SSL9000 mic channels) and when they used the GTQ2 as the main mic pre, he was blown away.

To be honest, that is a response we get from a lot of first time GTQ2 users. You will be hearing a lot more about it now we have production scaled up after initial hiccups that aren't for disclosure here. Professional Audio Designs are stocking them now and I'll be on their stand at the AES if anyone cares to pop by and chat about vintage Neve or our new stuff.

For those who don't know, we are based in a studio that has a Neve 8028 console. The Neve 8028 was the last big (by 1972 standards) all class A console and is full of 1084 Channel Amplifiers and 1272 bus amps.

So we have a console full of around 18 x 1084's and 6 x 1073 and our outboard pres include API, Avalon, Altec and RCA tube, and 4 channels of GTQ2. The GTQ2's are always used as the premier mic pre over the 1084's in the console or the outboard gear. Folk that have used the studio tell us that the GTQ2 sounds superior to the 1084's with better highs and a firmer bass. The high frequency is flat to around 50KHz and starts rolling at around 65KHz.

We had Foo Fighters here recently and they used the GTQ2's and David has a pair in his private collection.

Basically you get two killer mic pres with a very useful 3 band EQ, a proper 18dB/octave HPF (not the 6dB/oct of lesser beasts) and a great pair of DI's... all in a 19" x 1U box with built in psu. Plus the knowledge that I tested everyone of them. All that for $2,495, which is marginally more than the price of a single channel clone Neve module and a lot less than a real one... that doesn't sound so good! I can't think of any drawbacks!

I'll also be demo'ing my expandable 8 into 4 mini-mixer which has a full meter and monitor system included as well as a remote full size fader option... and, if we can get it here in time, our new stereo compressor that will blow a lot of minds when the features of it are revealed... sorry, I can't give major details right now other than to confirm that it is transformer coupled all class A, but with exciting new circuitry... especially the side chain control.



Geoff Tanner
www.auroraaudio.net

[Geoff_T]

Originally posted by tubedude
Question for Geoff...
Will the new 8 channel console be affordable for us homereccers or is it going to be a $10,000+ kind of deal?
Xformer preamps?
Give us some info, please...

Hi

We still have to work out the price but I can confirm that it will be a fraction of the $10,000 figure you quote there!

I think that it's important to note that it's a line input mixer so there aren't pre-amps in it, although there is a stepped Elma gain switch with a range of +10 to -20dB (with a further +10dB in hand in the fader).

I have several concepts for its use...

For a start, pre amps and eq aside, it gives you as much (if not more) than a regular console would.

i.e. Input gain control, input level indication, pre-fade insertions on inputs and outputs, 4 bus, channel mute and solo-in-place, plus a full monitor/meter system with real Sifam VU's and a phase meter (to confirm mono compatibility, especially on car radios!), stereo playback to check your recording, stereo effects return, two switched monitor outputs for two speaker systems, and even a stereo headphone driver.

This could hang on the outputs of a digital editing system and provide the mixdown to stereo. It is easily expandible to any number of channels and the add on units are less expensive as the mon/meter on the outputs is not fitted. For a small home studio it provides a perfect solution... I provide a 25 pin Cannon D as well as XLR's for the inputs and each channel has pre-fade insertions and channel outputs.

Now, if you want mic pres with EQ's to go with it, the GTQ2 has two outputs per channel and one of those outputs was designed to drive our mini-mixer. The mini-mixer is 3U high and with 8 channels of GTQ2 you would have an 8 (or more) into 4 that's 7U (12.25") tall... it would fit in a flight case easily. For not a great deal more than your original figure, you could get this combination.



Geoff Tanner
www.auroraaudio.net

[tubedude]

Thanks for the info. A single channel would sell much faster arounder here, though. We DO buy nice stuff sometimes.

Whats the deal with the DR-S? I know thats a Phoenix, too, but you dont mention it.

[tubedude]

Know what burns me up?
I've read the differences in circuit design between the 1272 and 1073 Neves, and it was like one gain stage difference for the most part....
heres what kills me...
all these Neve clone companies (Vintech, etc.) keep spitting out the 1272 dual preamps for around $1200-$1400, but when they make a 1081 or 1073 preamp clone they want $2000 for the single channel, just because the original 1081 draws more money than the original 1272's (not counting EQ here). At the most, there should be a $100 difference between the new 1272 and 1081 clones for dual channel. Unless there is something I dont understand. I just know its a rip.
I'm just not hearing it any other way. Someone is getting thier ass raped for an extra gain stage.

[Geoff_T]

Originally posted by tubedude
Thanks for the info. A single channel would sell much faster arounder here, though. We DO buy nice stuff sometimes.

Whats the deal with the DR-S? I know thats a Phoenix, too, but you dont mention it.

Hi

That's because the DRS is produced by Phoenix Audio UK from whom we split a while back, for a variety of very good reasons that I won't mention here. I have had no input in the design, build or test of the device.




Geoff
www.auroraaudio.net

[Geoff_T]

Originally posted by tubedude
Know what burns me up?
I've read the differences in circuit design between the 1272 and 1073 Neves, and it was like one gain stage difference for the most part....
heres what kills me...
all these Neve clone companies (Vintech, etc.) keep spitting out the 1272 dual preamps for around $1200-$1400, but when they make a 1081 or 1073 preamp clone they want $2000 for the single channel, just because the original 1081 draws more money than the original 1272's (not counting EQ here). At the most, there should be a $100 difference between the new 1272 and 1081 clones for dual channel. Unless there is something I dont understand. I just know its a rip.
I'm just not hearing it any other way. Someone is getting thier ass raped for an extra gain stage.

Hi

Actually, it's more like the other way around....

The circuit of a single 1272 basically consists of two transformers, six transistors, and a gain switch (which is inevitable wired in a strange fashion). Obviously there are a bundle of passive components.

Whether one considers that those parts stuck in a box with a power supply is worth $1,400 is a matter of opinion.

The 1081 is immensely more complicated than the 1272. If you ignored the fact that there are around ten amplifiers of various types, custom wound inductors and around ten times as many passive components... you have all the switches on the front panel that are custom made. It must cost a lot more than a 1272 so nobody is getting ultra shafted... it's a different beast altogether.



Geoff
www.auroraaudio.net